Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:18:28 GMT

[quote userid="3094" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29506/chemical-neutering---treat-the-male-or-the-female/227001#227001"]What is the principal aim here?[/quote]

I'm guessing that the aim (since the OP didn't mention any plans to breed the dogs later) is to delay neutering until skeletally mature. For example, the most often quoted study was in golden retrievers (done at UC Davis, I think??) which showed higher rates of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate rupture, lymphosarcoma and haemangiosarcoma in neutered vs intact animals

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23418479/

There have been similar retrospective analyses done in some other breeds, I think.

Of course, lots of confounding factors such as weight/ body condition score etc as well as breed differences to take into account, but not quite as simple as to say neutering always beneficial with no adverse effects aside surgical risks (and I say that as someone who is massively pro-neutering, particularly for females!)

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Julian Earl — Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:26:49 GMT

Might I ask some basic questions about this case please?

1. What is the principal aim here?

If it is simply prevent an unwanted pregnancy then you have to neuter the female. It is permanent, and prevents any seasons at all t of course and thereby preventing any other male dogs pursuing her and mating her. If the male is the real issue such as due to behavioural issues attributable to his hormones then I'm afraid he should get the chop, either surgically or medically. Also, unexpected death aside, surgery has relatively few side effects. Plus a medically treated bitch can still develop a pyometra at some stage and/or mammary tumours. A speyed bitch cannot develop the former and the latter is also far, far, more unlikely ever to develop M-tumours. What was the published data? I forget at his minute. 30% of un-neutered bitches develop mammary tumours I think. But only 3% of speyed females do so!

Tangent: Does the same apply to humans , does anyone know? Ovariohysterectomy is common in older ladies so does that reduce the incidence of breast cancer? I'l follow my own advice and check n Pub-Med.com!

Thanks for reading!

A quick check on PubMed and it says that HRT increases the risk but with no specific reference to OH itself. Here: State of the evidence 2017: an update on the connection between breast cancer and the environment (nih.gov)

The same paper then states this: n addition to variations in exposures to endogenous levels of both oestrogens and progesterone, there are several other sources of natural and synthetic steroids, including those found in a number of pharmaceuticals and personal care products. Most of these hormonal agents have been designated as carcinogens by the IARC and the NTP (see Table Table1).1). This section examines the relationships between use of these compounds and possible changes in risk for developing breast cancer.

Followed by this which is more revealing: About hormone replacement therapy it says this: WHI study clarified that the increased risk of breast cancer in the WHI study occurred in women taking the combined oestrogen-progestin formula, but not for those women taking oestrogen-only HRT supplements

Research indicates that increased exposure to natural progesterone did not increase risk for breast cancer and, in some circumstances, might even be protective [159, 160]. In the single large-scale cohort study examining risks for breast cancer in women taking hormone replacement regimens with either natural progesterone or synthetic progestins compounded with oestrogens, use of a progesterone-based replacement was associated with no added risk for breast cancer compared with controls

There is much, much more availale for tose who wish to pursue this. Rgarding dogs, dogs are used as a very good model for human breast cancer.

TTFN...

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 24 Nov 2020 22:09:13 GMT

[quote userid="3607" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29506/chemical-neutering---treat-the-male-or-the-female/226901#226901"]Out of interest, what were the hip and elbow scores of the parents of these animals?[/quote]

They've been imported from Ukraine I think, so very unlikely that they had been scored!

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 24 Nov 2020 22:03:00 GMT

Wish them luck!

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 24 Nov 2020 18:05:22 GMT

Well after giving the options, they've decided to just keep them apart!

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

David Mills — Fri, 20 Nov 2020 17:36:24 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29506/chemical-neutering---treat-the-male-or-the-female/226849#226849"]65kg male separate from the bitch may not be as easy as it first sounds![/quote]

Maybe ask Greater Manchester police, they'll have some experience.

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 20 Nov 2020 17:15:55 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29506/chemical-neutering---treat-the-male-or-the-female"]too early (understandable in a giant breed dog like this[/quote]

The evidence is not terribly robust wrt 'orthopaedic issues'

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29506/chemical-neutering---treat-the-male-or-the-female"]about suppressing her season[/quote]

Is that a completely benign action?

Out of interest, what were the hip and elbow scores of the parents of these animals?

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 20 Nov 2020 10:20:11 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29506/chemical-neutering---treat-the-male-or-the-female/226849#226849"]At about 3 years. [/quote]

What's the point then? Surely the bitch will be neutered by then, or they're risking pyo and mammary neoplasia for her??? Or am I missing something?

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29506/chemical-neutering---treat-the-male-or-the-female/226849#226849"]the first had such terrible hip dysplasia it could barely walk by the time he was a year old, then had spinal issues and was euthanased due to intractable pain. [/quote]

Nothing to do with neutering then.

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29506/chemical-neutering---treat-the-male-or-the-female/226849#226849"]Think the owner is just wanting to minimise any risks of orthopaedic issues. They are fairly sensible [/quote]

But they've got to balance the (very small) risk of neutering causing ortho issues with the risks involved in delaying neutering. Certainly for the bitch. There's the obvious to consider... a bitch spay in an older XL breed will be trickier, especially if she is carrying more weight. But as far as I know there is no evidence as to whether 'chemical castration' in the boy will carry the same 'risks' as surgical castration anyway.

Good luck - it sounds like the owner has had a dreadful experience in the past and it is all they can focus on. Not convinced age at neutering had anything to do with it though.....

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 20 Nov 2020 10:05:41 GMT

Thanks everyone for the replies. It would seem that treating the male would be the best idea then. I'd imagine with a 65kg dog, if going for a larger Suprelorin implant it's likely to only last about 6 months rather than 12?

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Utlendigur — Thu, 19 Nov 2020 21:41:53 GMT

Yep, not recommended - which is why I wrote not recommended, rather than can't be used, but thanks for clearing up the confusion

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:03:57 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29506/chemical-neutering---treat-the-male-or-the-female/226794#226794"]What age do they intend castrating him? It is unlikely that she will come into season under 7 months old so neuter him in a couple of months when he is about 18 months old? [/quote]

At about 3 years. The older male is their second caucasian shepherd - the first had such terrible hip dysplasia it could barely walk by the time he was a year old, then had spinal issues and was euthanased due to intractable pain. Think the owner is just wanting to minimise any risks of orthopaedic issues. They are fairly sensible (except for the fact they have two of these dogs), but I would imagine trying to keep a 65kg male separate from the bitch may not be as easy as it first sounds!

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 19 Nov 2020 01:04:38 GMT

Contra-indications

Although the product may be used to medicate bitches at their first oestrus, this regime is not normally recommended. Similarly medication before a bitch's first oestrus is not generally advised.

Doesn't say you can't use it........

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Lindsey Edwards — Thu, 19 Nov 2020 00:39:02 GMT

I would have concerns any chemical suppression would affect maturity/development similar to surgical processes procedure? Castration of male at 18mths may be best option or plan ahead to keep separate (boarding?)

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Utlendigur — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:57:03 GMT

I always thought that Delvo wasn't recommended at/before the first season?

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Beats — Tue, 17 Nov 2020 23:11:52 GMT

I find a lot of folk seem to be great at keeping their entire dogs and bitches apart - I've no idea how they do it, but must be possible.

Alternative ideas I can think of that probably aren't better than those already suggested...:

1) tardak injection for the boy - not sure if this would be easy to time correctly, but if not wishing to permanently castrate because may wish to breed, then could do monthly from bitch being 6 months of age until her season is passed? Haven't used for years, so can't be sure still readily available?

2) try to keep them apart, but don't sweat it if mating occurs with view to giving alizin at end of estrous when no more mating going to occur?

Both more expensive options than castrating, but both still allow normal first season in bitch if that is desired (say has recessed vulva and you reckon having a season might reduce risk of perivulval dermatitis / UTI's in future.

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 17 Nov 2020 21:07:45 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-clinical-discussions/29506/chemical-neutering---treat-the-male-or-the-female"]Owner is not wanting to neuter them too early (understandable in a giant breed dog like this)[/quote]

What age do they intend castrating him? It is unlikely that she will come into season under 7 months old so neuter him in a couple of months when he is about 18 months old?

RE: Chemical Neutering - treat the male or the female?

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 17 Nov 2020 21:05:22 GMT

Giving Suprelorin to the male will probably achieve the same thing as a surgical castration and if you give it when the bitch comes in season he might still mate her successfully, he should have some epidydimal reserves.

If you want to give delvosterone I would give it in anaestrus to reduce the risk of cystic endometritis.

You can give a Suprelorin implant to the bitch, off licence, It will bring her in season but even if mated it will cause hypoluteoidism and the eventual foetuses will be absorbed at about 4 -5 weeks of gestation and she will not come again in season for 12-18 months.