Young male cat cystitis

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Rob Loxley — Tue, 09 Jun 2020 18:43:11 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223337"]I am genuinely interested whether you think any of the questions so far, or the answers you have read, merit further discussion??[/quote]

Absolutely, there are some very knowledgeable people on there - many who never post on the general forums (though having said that Anthony Dennison's caesarian death thread has brought some really good information/insights/advice from newer voices) - and recent topics have been the kind of things we deal with day in day out.
Re further discussion, taking today's question on Right atrial thrombus in dog- do I give Clopridogrel?; Dave Dickson says about rarely finding diltiazem enough alone for rate control and adding digoxin - I have mainly used digoxin and wonder if the opposite is true and I should more often be adding diltiazem to get better outcomes?

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Todd — Mon, 08 Jun 2020 14:54:12 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223337"] Tony, but you are retired [/quote]

As I've always said and done Arlo, and all, discuss the points of argument, not the person pointing!

Remember the Emporer's New Clothes which sometimes applies, even on here.....

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 08 Jun 2020 14:19:33 GMT

[quote userid="4181" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223290"]I appreciate the sound advice coming out of the expert help forum but there’s little room to widen the discussion or ask a follow up question; I’m not sure I’ve seen the experts engage on any tangented discussions from the expert help forums? [/quote]

The reason you haven't seen experts engage on a tangented question is because I haven't built that feature yet!

And actually, the point is to try and keep expert opinion in the expert forum (where a) they get recognition, and where their opinion is elevated above every other Tom, Dick and Wendy both on this site and on Facebook, and b) they can keep things brief and to the point and not get drawn into discussions which analyse the minutiae, c) also not get drawn into endless follow up points).

So the point of tangenting is to look at the questions being asked and think ... are those questions which deserves wider discussion amongst the rest of us, or has one of the expert answers raised an issue that is worthy of wider debate?

Whilst we wait for the tangent button to work in the expert forums (ie to tangent into a discussion forum), you could of course do that manually. Copy something written in the expert forum into a discussion forum post and then go from there.

I am genuinely interested whether you think any of the questions so far, or the answers you have read, merit further discussion??

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223334"]I officially give up. There is no point in trying to discuss a condition with a stuck record.[/quote]

I also wonder whether it sends the right message to the profession about the forums as a centre of excellence if so many of them are just arguments with one retired vet (I do not mean that insultingly, Tony, but you are retired and I would love to see more questions / discussions etc from new grads).

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Todd — Mon, 08 Jun 2020 12:24:58 GMT

I can only wait for someone, hopefully soon, can put the facts together better than I .

Then vets may wake up to the idea that just perhaps I was right so that the obvious problem and solution can be joined together..

In the meantime I wonder how many cats will suffer? The problem won't go away!

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 08 Jun 2020 12:05:24 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223277"]

People have repeatedly said there is no merit in these discussions with Anthony Todd either because he is stuck in the dark ages, and things have moved on, or because his arguments are badly constructed.

As I say, difficult for me to judge, but if that is the case, then I IMPLORE YOU, all of you (Kate Richardson, robloxley, Anthony Dennison, Thomas Johnson, Beats, Evelyn Barbour-Hill, Lucy Fleming, moderate yourselves.

If you feel that Anthony or anyone else for that matter is making points that are now out of date, or they are going round in circles, then please, please, please leave the discussion. If you like, explain why you are doing so, but then leave and do not return to that thread.

[/quote]

You are right Arlo. I tried to step out earlier in the thread but couldn't help myself. I have tried my hardest to help educate Anthony, but I've failed at every step. I won't be replying on this thread anymore.

I officially give up. There is no point in trying to discuss a condition with a stuck record.

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Rob Loxley — Fri, 05 Jun 2020 22:12:27 GMT

What happened to getting some clinical moderators for the forums? I appreciate the sound advice coming out of the expert help forum but there’s little room to widen the discussion or ask a follow up question; I’m not sure I’ve seen the experts engage on any tangented discussions from the expert help forums?

I think, like in life, certain people are just not going to get on. Maybe you could add some kind of ,snooze, function like Facebook?

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 05 Jun 2020 22:01:47 GMT

[quote userid="12930" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223280"]Cycling, Brexit, Raw feeding, homeopathy, discussion of use of steroids in pruritic skin conditions with Anthony Todd are all examples of recurrent themes that are perhaps best contained in single threads but perhaps not in a position to dominate the discussion forum, so "niche" area?[/quote]

I can't resist, but after multiple complaints as it was appearing in seemingly every thread according to some I created a separate thread for cycling and it disappeared into the depths of some server in South Carolina seemingly never to see the light of day again.

Right this thread was number 3, I've pushed it back up to number 1, so I haven't bumped it too far, but i'm going to knock it back to number 2, now where is that search button

Neil

RE: Young male cat cystitis

David Mills — Fri, 05 Jun 2020 11:42:38 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223274"]Oh, come on, David, nobody's mentioned cycling yet.[/quote]

Or teeth, thank the Lord.

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 05 Jun 2020 11:40:16 GMT

[quote userid="12930" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223280"]Would it be possible to have a forum heading at the bottom of screen (below Samsoc one) entitled "Niche" where long threads with limited contributors can be moved to?[/quote]

Hmm.

A few thoughts ...

I think you might be onto something, but my first thoughts are:

a) it's not necessarily niche subjects. It's not necessarily subjects that have a lot of posts. It's really ones that are annoying a significant number of people. Sort of what we used to call 'controversial' (though not necessarily so). Maybe just 'Room 101'. We could probably have a voting system - I need to investigate this, though.

b) In any event, I cannot do anything like that until we have subscriptions/notifications working properly, else the discussions will just die out when placed in Niche/Controversial/Room 101, regardless of merit. I am aiming to have them ready next week.

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Beats — Fri, 05 Jun 2020 10:04:01 GMT

Arlo Guthrie

Just a side thought.

Would it be possible to have a forum heading at the bottom of screen (below Samsoc one) entitled "Niche" where long threads with limited contributors can be moved to?

Would this be a good compromise between stifling debate / discussion versus having a thread with little general interest dominating the top of the discussion boards?

Could either have:

1) Manually someone (you) moves threads there when it becomes clear that their presence at the top of the main discussion topic is no longer warranted (either on your own initiative or if someone messages you of pings you to draw your attention to their irritation at the presence of a thread dominating the top of the forum).

2) Automatically when reaches more than say 100 posts.

3) Users can vote down threads by click of button (20 votes relegates it to niche area say)? [effective self-moderation by the forum-users, not just posters, if you get the correct number of votes required right]

4) Individual users can vote down threads for them only (probably a techie headache for you).

This thread is an excellent example where, in my opinion, the discussion is not entirely merit-less, however it is most certainly niche and not of general interest to forum members. Also once a thread reaches a certain critical size it becomes somewhat unwieldy for a new participant to wish to embark on and thus is niche for that reason irrespective of content?

Simply removing a thread or ceasing posting in it may just let the discussion spill out into other threads. Containing that discussion to an isolated thread in a "niche" area may be preferable?

Cycling, Brexit, Raw feeding, homeopathy, discussion of use of steroids in pruritic skin conditions with Anthony Todd are all examples of recurrent themes that are perhaps best contained in single threads but perhaps not in a position to dominate the discussion forum, so "niche" area?

I mean no disrespect to any posters or thread contributors here, only a suggestion at effective house-keeping.

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Todd — Fri, 05 Jun 2020 09:44:26 GMT

Thanks Anthony, went through it all. Some mention of diet change as a remedy but no mention of diet as a cause that I could see.

Persistent emphasis on increasing water intake but no mention of how you do that except tinned food......

So the usual side-step IMHO. Perhaps you could point out what I missed??

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Todd — Fri, 05 Jun 2020 09:22:30 GMT

Thanks Arlo.

If vetsurgeon.org wants to be regarded as the best, most accurate vet site, which I think they are, then posters should be able to correct and/or argue for or against anything posted by anyone only on grounds of accuracy not denigrate the poster.

This, however, sometimes may includes established dogma.

This is all I ever do, unless personally provoked.

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 05 Jun 2020 08:10:15 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223272"]

Jesus wept, this thread actually is in real danger of giving me a blocked fing bladder.

Arlo Guthrie) if you need a reason for reduced posters, Exhibit A.

Perhaps we can have an Anthony Todd) section "Echo chamber Forum"

[/quote]

David Mills Just about impossible for me to moderate a 'technical' thread, because I am not a vet, and therefore it is just about impossible for me to know whether there is some merit in the discussion, however small.

As I say, difficult for me to judge, but if that is the case, then I IMPLORE YOU, all of you (Kate Richardson, Rob Loxley, Anthony Dennison, Thomas Johnson, Beats, Evelyn Barbour-Hill, Lucy Fleming, moderate yourselves.

Very soon, anyone who posts out-of-date stuff, or who doesn't make a decent case will realise they have to up their game, or nobody will reply.

I would also add that I have absolutely no problem at all with Tony starting his own thread, or even turbo posting in his own thread and wouldn't dream of stopping him (I only get annoyed if he or anyone else hijacks someone else's thread).

It is down to everyone else to make their decision about whether or not to participate in Tony's discussions and if you do, you cannot then complain you don't like it!

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Todd — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 23:59:07 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223272"]Perhaps we can have an Anthony Todd) section "Echo chamber Forum"[/quote]

Sorry David, just my hopelessly vain fight to stamp out erroneous rampant dogma!

Corticosteroids and rabbits is next, then it's the "dose rate of phenobarb".

Lots for you to condemn me for to come......

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Todd — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 23:54:14 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223270"] For struvite, magnesium concentration in the diet seems to be one of the main factors, though it depends on urine pH amongst other factors. Water intake is a big factor, and cats who ate multiple small meals throughout the day rather than 2 larger meals had more acidic urine to reduce the risk of struvite formation. [/quote]

Sorry, and I'll be abused again from the ivory tower, but you are right, Mg++ and urine pH and water intake are big factors and the only things you can do is reduce Mg++ in the diet, or acidify it, or hope the cat drinks enough to dilute the urine so there's no precipitation.

Adding NH4Cl will change the ph but it's hard to make a cat do anything, let alone drink more, so you're stuck with it, then add oxalate to the mix.

Or you could eliminate high Mg++ cat foods??

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 23:23:45 GMT

Oh, come on, David, nobody's mentioned cycling yet.

RE: Young male cat cystitis

David Mills — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 19:03:35 GMT

Jesus wept, this thread actually is in real danger of giving me a blocked fing bladder.

Arlo Guthrie) if you need a reason for reduced posters, Exhibit A.

Perhaps we can have an Anthony Todd) section "Echo chamber Forum"

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 16:41:56 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223269"]I've been through this. Copious, and I mean a lot of tables, statistics and everything else,[/quote]

Yes - that's why I sent you the full paper rather than just an abstract so you could have the full information. Tables, statistics etc are required to convey the information across.

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 16:40:57 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223269"]Lots of changing diets, which help obviously but nothing, that I could see, about the diets actually fed before the problem.[/quote]

Hi Tony,

Have you read the other paper I sent you with that one? I saved the pdf file as 'nutrition and urolithiasis' for short. There's a bit in that about diet affecting struvite formation, which is why I sent it to you along with this one. For struvite, magnesium concentration in the diet seems to be one of the main factors, though it depends on urine pH amongst other factors. Water intake is a big factor, and cats who ate multiple small meals throughout the day rather than 2 larger meals had more acidic urine to reduce the risk of struvite formation.

I think that paper might have the information you're looking for.

Is there a reason why you've posted about just one that you're not happy about the information you received rather than mentioning the other two I sent you?

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Todd — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 15:47:59 GMT

Recurrence rate and long-term course of cats with feline lower urinary tract disease

Elisabeth Kaul1 , Katrin Hartmann1, Sven Reese2 and Roswitha Dorsch1

I've been through this. Copious, and I mean a lot of tables, statistics and everything else, even modifying water supply etc [beneficial as we all know].!!

Lots of changing diets, which help obviously but nothing, that I could see, about the diets actually fed before the problem.

Incredible beyond belief, and this is a paper that's supposed to nail me to the wall.....

One has to wonder whether someone is pushing some buttons somewhere!

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 13:40:16 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223254"]

Found this, which certainly doesn't help, as it seems to guarantee struvite......??

https://www.vetmed.umn.edu/sites/vetmed.umn.edu/files/feline_urate_uroliths.pdf

[/quote]

No, what this means is that some stones can have a mixed composition, so not 100% struvite/CaOx but normal recommendation is to treat for the majority of what the stone is

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Todd — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 11:30:32 GMT

Found this, which certainly doesn't help, as it seems to guarantee struvite......??

https://www.vetmed.umn.edu/sites/vetmed.umn.edu/files/feline_urate_uroliths.pdf

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Todd — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 11:02:49 GMT

Sorry, i was relying on this

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223252"]Summaries and abstracts can be written in any way that the authors want to get their point across [/quote]

Sorry I was relying on what you've said.....

I'll try the full paper.

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 10:58:06 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223240"]Not my words, only my comments on the paper which, as I said, was a lot of not very much.[/quote]

You only read the summary. There is a lot more information on the full paper. Summaries and abstracts can be written in any way that the authors want to get their point across - there are some abstracts that make some drugs seem miraculous but when you read the full paper and analyse the statistics you realise that it's not as good as they say

RE: Young male cat cystitis

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 10:56:23 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/29105/young-male-cat-cystitis/223232"]I'd be suitably chastened and repent if you said " on chemical analysis of the urine patients have no struvite or oxalate at all". and if the "blockage material, if you can find it, contains neither struvite or oxalate AND it is a primary blockage ie not a "spasm" or a "stricture" [some studies don't distinguish between primary blocks and re-blocks.]...[/quote]

Is the urinalysis I posted from our last blocked cat not enough?