Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Lucy Fleming — Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:55:32 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221098"]

Lucy Fleming said:
Well, currently we are talking about 3 weeks,

It’s probably quite realistic for this to be 3 months and just 3 weeks. Or longer.

The current recommendation also mentions vaccines in puppies so it’s not forbidden.

I am not trying in any way to tell anyone what to do or what is right or wrong. Or to justify what I do. But there are so many practice that have a blanket approach, no one gets seen unless the animal is dying which I don’t think is what the guidelines are saying.

[/quote]

FWIW, I think you are right, and it will be longer than three weeks. That's the timescale we've been given for now though. Where we are, I think it's feasible for a puppy to remain at home with its owners for that time and be at minimal risk of infectious disease or massively adverse behavioural impacts. This won't be the case everywhere, and it won't be in the puppy's best interest to keep kicking the can down the road indefinitely (though arguably a later finish than 10wks for modified live vaccines may give the pup better protection anyway...)

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

James Allsop — Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:47:51 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221099"]I delivered 7 cockers by caeser last night - they will have to be docked next week as they have to be done by 5 days[/quote]

I was not trying to open a debate in this thread on tail docking in general, but specifically during this lockdown.

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

bob lehner — Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:20:51 GMT

I generally agree with Michael's robust views - but that really is the most fatuous comment I've seen so far in the whole vet/corona debate.

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:27:58 GMT

We'll agree to disagree then.

Sounds like restrictions are going to be tightened again soon as too many people still moving around. I don't understand what is so difficult about the concept 'stay at home'. If we told people they had to take an hour's exercise everyday, there would be an outcry!!

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Dinu Catilina — Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:08:57 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221104"]

And that's also what the kennel club are saying.

[/quote]

Come on Gillian, in other circumstances you wouldn't give a toss about what the kennel has to say.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221104"]In my opinion puppies will be healthier and better socialised at the moment staying with their mum and litter mates. [/quote]

I disagree with this as well. One puppy, yes , no problem, happy life. More than 1 then no, there is a reason why we advise owners not to buy two puppies at the same time.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221104"] Putting a single puppy into a bored household, especially if with no dogs and with excitable children and no external social interactions, is a recipe for disaster behaviour-wise.[/quote]

I disagree about this as well. Bored people have time on their hands, they have back gardens and they are allowed by the government to go out for a walk with their dog/puppy. I would argue that bored people with a puppy will do better than bored people with nothing to do. How long until frustration builds up?

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221104"]If a vet then decides it would be best to vaccinate the litter under social distancing precautions I can understand that. Better than 6 to 10 families all being exposed to the risk of unnecessary travel.[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand this. Less risk in picking a puppy from someone's front door than going to Tesco.

I also want to clarify that I'm not picking on you just to have an internet fight but it is my last week-end not on call for the foreseeable future and I'm bored. Only if I had a puppy ...

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 29 Mar 2020 08:20:17 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221092"]All academic. Puppies shouldn't be changing hands anyway at the moment as it requires interaction between different households.[/quote]

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/for-breeders/breeders-and-coronavirus-covid-19-faqs/?&utm_source=kc-website&utm_medium=whats-new&utm_campaign=coronavirusbreeders

And that's also what the kennel club are saying.

In my opinion puppies will be healthier and better socialised at the moment staying with their mum and litter mates. Putting a single puppy into a bored household, especially if with no dogs and with excitable children and no external social interactions, is a recipe for disaster behaviour-wise.

If a vet then decides it would be best to vaccinate the litter under social distancing precautions I can understand that. Better than 6 to 10 families all being exposed to the risk of unnecessary travel.

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 21:30:41 GMT

[quote userid="4389" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221100"]if pups are over 8 weeks of age they cant change hands without a microchip. [/quote]

They can be microchipped at the same time with the vaccine, I don’t think anyone asks to be seen multiple times. And unfortunately there is no punishment for selling a puppy without microchip ️

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 21:29:17 GMT

[quote userid="4389" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221101"]do they have to be docked?[/quote]

Of course. Working dogs. See the papers published in the VR if you want the evidence (that was good enough for the Scottish government to change the law). Not getting into a docking debate.

The microchip thing is interesting, I guess you might as well do it with the 1st vacc unless it's living in a hermetically sealed bubble at 8 weeks and you are happy not vaccinating it......

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

James Allsop — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 21:18:02 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221099"]

I delivered 7 cockers by caeser last night - they will have to be docked next week as they have to be done by 5 days

[/quote]

do they have to be docked?

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

James Allsop — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 21:13:07 GMT

if pups are over 8 weeks of age they cant change hands without a microchip. so is a microchip now an emergency so that the puppy can be traded?

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 19:22:36 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221098"]

The current recommendation also mentions vaccines in puppies so it’s not forbidden.

[/quote]

I quite agree. Some people are taking this too far, If I'd been waiting months for a puppy then I'd still want it even under these movement restrictions. Happy not going within 2 meters of the breeder. Pet shops allowed to remain open so it's still ok to buy a pet.

I delivered 7 cockers by caeser last night - they will have to be docked next week as they have to be done by 5 days. Putting some of these things off is dreadful for animal welfare, and a miniscule risk for us.

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 19:01:16 GMT

[quote userid="10320" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221097"]Well, currently we are talking about 3 weeks,[/quote]

It’s probably quite realistic for this to be 3 months and just 3 weeks. Or longer.

The current recommendation also mentions vaccines in puppies so it’s not forbidden.

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Lucy Fleming — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 18:44:08 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221093"]What do you mean by a bit longer? A month, 2, 3? [/quote]

Well, currently we are talking about 3 weeks, and then re-assess. I can appreciate everyone's frustration that realistically we know it is likely to be longer, but the current recommendation is "This means that animals should only be seen in emergencies or where, in the judgement of the veterinary surgeon, urgent assessment and/or treatment is needed in order to reduce the risk of patient deterioration to the point where it may become an emergency in the near future (ie within the three-week time frame currently laid out by the Government for these measures)."

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 18:15:50 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221094"]No idea. Depends on when less people are dying.[/quote]

So not a bit longer.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221094"]Seriously? You are worried about the income stream of breeders? For most it will be one litter.......!!!!![/quote]

No, not at all. I don’t think you understand the implication, unwanted puppies may find a home in small numbers. A wave of homeless puppies will be euthanised. same thing happened during wars.

I don’t have an issue with you stating that human life is more important than animals. But don’t trivialise what will happen with those animals. The ones not attended to now will end up attended to 2 weeks later when it’s full on Covid for either treatment or euthanasia. Problems don’t just go away on their own.

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 18:07:40 GMT

No idea. Depends on when less people are dying. Hopefully not too long if people stay home.

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221093"]Does the public buy older puppies or even take them for free? [/quote]

Seriously? You are worried about the income stream of breeders? For most it will be one litter.......!!!!!

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 17:37:22 GMT

It’s not academic at all, it’s a very real question. What do you mean by a bit longer? A month, 2, 3?
Does the public buy older puppies or even take them for free?

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 17:15:59 GMT

All academic. Puppies shouldn't be changing hands anyway at the moment as it requires interaction between different households.

Breeders should be able to cope with a litter of puppies for a bit longer than 8 weeks or they have no business breeding.

Am i the only one who sees puppies fairly regularly whose owners didn't get around to vaccinating until they are significantly older? Haven't seen parvo in years....

Incidentally, years ago I used to do the vaccines for a puppy farmer (long story...I was trying to help the council sort him out...he's since been banned from keeping animals). His puppies ALWAYS got parvo, amongst other bugs. In his case I'd still vaccinate. I just don't think most puppies, kept in a home/garden environment, are high enough risk.

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 16:53:30 GMT

Well, it says nothing new, don’t vaccinate adult animals and consider environment for young. The problem is that many vets think that a primary course is not urgent and can wait.
another scenario I thought of is what will happen with puppies if they are not vaccinated. Their new owners might not take them anymore as their local vet will not vaccinate. The breeder will be left with a litter of 8 (the decision to breed was taken more than 4 months ago so no way to predict today) in theory to keep until the situation is better ( months). What do you think will happen to these puppies? How many can suddenly increase their numbers with 8 and give them all proper care?

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Miriam Lodewyks — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 16:03:55 GMT

Here’s your answer I think:

wsava.org/.../Advice-for-Veterinarians-about-Routine-Prophylactic-Vaccination-during-COVID-19.pdf

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 28 Mar 2020 08:08:59 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221066"]slightly paraphrasing[/quote]

slightly!

What I think he was saying was to put human welfare first, and you won't be disciplined for not acting as a vet normally would. Some animals may not receive the high level of veterinary care they should normally expect, and as long as the vet does their very best in the circumstances that's ok.

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 27 Mar 2020 23:36:03 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/veterinary-clinical/small-animal/f/misc-case-discussions/28976/is-a-vaccine-ever-an-emergency---open-discussion/221055"] Christ, just stand up for animal welfare. It doesn't become less important just because a few people are at a slightly higher risk of death. [/quote]

Which, slightly paraphrasing, seems to be the message in the RCVS presidents message. You're not going to get into trouble for acting in the animals best interests.

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

David Mills — Fri, 27 Mar 2020 21:40:29 GMT

Christ, just stand up for animal welfare. It doesn't become less important just because a few people are at a slightly higher risk of death.

This argument about people leaving the house risking the lives as others is a fallacious nonsense. We as a profession should know better.

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Julie Innes — Fri, 27 Mar 2020 21:37:41 GMT

i am prepared to offer gloves and plastic aprons to my local NHS services. Shocking that they don't have enough. OTOH had a couple of my clients, both NHS workers, offer me OOD PPE. Which seems crazy. They are throwing this stuff out!

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

James Allsop — Fri, 27 Mar 2020 21:27:12 GMT

If you have any unopened boxes of gloves, disposable surgical gowns or surgical masks you could contact your local GP, nursing home etc and see if they want them.

RE: Is a Vaccine Ever an "Emergency"? - open discussion

Julie Innes — Fri, 27 Mar 2020 15:19:29 GMT

totally agree. we have fabric facemasks (homemade, not ideal I know, but stop you touching your face, or kissing animals!) and I am not wearing gloves, just hand washing before and after. We're lucky we have double doors, so we open one, lock the second, have the owner put the animal in the middle, shut the outer door, so only worry is fomite transmission.

However my main issue is that, barring anything important, people should stay at home! Not for my sake, but for the good of everyone!