Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

An On MRCVS — Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:42:02 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Some people are missing the point. It's not about money. At the end of a long night shift you just want to do your hand over and go home to sleep, not potentially to have to hang around for another hour.

[/quote]

Another Anon here. Rather than 'want' the night vet might NEED to go home after the pre-arranged end of shift. Some shifts in some night services start at 6pm and run to 8am. That's a 14 hour shift. Even a 13 hour night shift is gruelling night after night.

The night vet and nurse might have to do the same 13 or 14 hour shift the very next night. There is clearly no respect for the need for a proper rest break, to enable much needed good sleep for the night staff during the day.

I have also worked quite a bit in various night services. The night rota becomes unstable and unsustainable over time with arragements such as this. A lack of regard for proper rest breaks between shifts causes the night staff to decide to leave. Or not come backn if they are locums.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

An On MRCVS — Mon, 18 Nov 2019 11:40:48 GMT

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Kate Richardson — Mon, 18 Nov 2019 07:48:32 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

There are only 2 things employees hate.

1) the current system

2) change.

[/quote]

Har har.

In my pathetically small experience there is one thing that employees hate: being frequently forced by exploitation of their professional conscience to work extra time without pay.

[/quote]

And change with no explanation.

If a practice is busy enough to justify a dedicated night vet then I think it’s hard to justify this change. And a spoken handover can be more efficient if the case has extensive notes and needs immediate action.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 18 Nov 2019 03:09:31 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Goodness me there is some posturing in this thread[/quote]

There certainly is.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

David Mills — Mon, 18 Nov 2019 00:39:43 GMT

Goodness me there is some posturing in this thread and a hell of a lot of assumptions. We don't know the whole story and certainly haven't heard nearly enough information especially from the practices or management rationale.

I agree that Anon wouldn't be legally classed as a locum if they're working regular shifts or part of an ongoing rota. They also seem particularly perturbed by this so there is a regularity to their work at this practice. Further, their response to views different to theirs as "unhelpful" shows a particular prejudice and I daresay a lack of maturity.

In most contracts hours of work are given but with a stipulation that they may be expected to work more according to the needs of the business. If anon is on an hourly rate then just charge for extra time. If they're not, then there will be something in the contract dealing with such.

The catastrophising about gdvs is and typical of a vets response to change. This is easily dealt with by audit.

To describe it as theft and exploitation is a triumph of silliness over rationality. Funny how people complain about the commodification of the profession. We aren't shops. Sometimes things run over on daytime and night time. It happens, normally not that often. As said you can rarely staff for every eventuality. Risk versus reality. All this can be documented.

Similarly if you're taking 30-60 minutes to hand over patients then you need to seriously look at your efficiency. Unless you work in true ICC then that is an outrageous waste of time and resources.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

An On MRCVS — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 21:48:12 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]being frequently forced by exploitation of their professional conscience to work extra time without pay.[/quote]

Did the OP said they would be unpaid if they did stay? Must have missed that.

[/quote]

It was certainly the implication. Maybe the OP could confirm?

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]'Being forced to stay' is a difficult one, as far as whose responsibility the night cases actually are. The emergency clinic vets obviously finish at 8am. [/quote]

The night vet finishes at 8 a.m. (so of course is not paid for time after that, quite apart from the fact he/she has very good reasons for geting away on time). At 8 a.m. however he or she has no-one to hand over to. Maybe there's nothing in at the time that needs handing-over. But it's quite likely that there is. Maybe the night vet has not long finished a GDV (there's topical!) (and please don't jump on that, it's just a very obvious example) and the patient is still "critical" as they say. We all know that the night vet is probably going to hang on until the day vet gets there, and then spend 5-10 minutes handing over – motivated by professional conscience, as the managers of the host practice know damn well. But suppose he or she doesn't stay and something goes horribly wrong – or as might be on the cards anyway, the patient dies between 8 and 8.45 – who's going to be shat on by the disciplinary process? It ought to be the practice owners, but of course if they are not veterinary surgeons......

"The managers" should be providing that a day vet starts when the night vet finishes, preferably with a ten-minute overlap. They could give that day vet an earlier finish, or just more money. But they are scrooging instead: no doubt a very managerial thing to do, but not good man management and not at all veterinary.

[/quote]

Absolutely spot on 100%. And quite relevant - wasn't there a recent disciplinary case involving post-op care in a GDV?

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 19:34:02 GMT

I don't see 10 minutes as a reasonable handover time between night vet and day vet in a busy hospital - we need 30-60 minutes

As the host practice seems happy to have no vet available for 45 minutes I guess they no longer want a proper handover - the night vet will have to leave clear notes and plans certainly.

I'd be interested to hear from the OP if they have been offered extra pay should they have to stay late

interesting difference in attitudes between employed and managing/ employer vets too - this expectation for people vet for nurses - to work overtime for free is theft - no different to an employee helping themselves to consumables.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 19:22:15 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]being frequently forced by exploitation of their professional conscience to work extra time without pay.[/quote]

Did the OP said they would be unpaid if they did stay? Must have missed that.

[/quote]

It was certainly the implication. Maybe the OP could confirm?

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]'Being forced to stay' is a difficult one, as far as whose responsibility the night cases actually are. The emergency clinic vets obviously finish at 8am. [/quote]

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Anthony Todd — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:17:45 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]what solution to your practice's predicament do you see?[/quote]Don't the NHS nurses have a overlapping handover period [probably unpaid though]

So Fluffy's owner rings just after 8.0am, a reasonable time, and gets no info at all, or someone reading from notes or the night vet stays on,unpaid!!

What about the practice charging the client for a "vet handover appointment??? and paying either vet for their time or just build it into the fee!

Gee, must be such a happy place to work.....

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 17:52:28 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]being frequently forced by exploitation of their professional conscience to work extra time without pay.[/quote]

Did the OP said they would be unpaid if they did stay? Must have missed that.

'Being forced to stay' is a difficult one, as far as whose responsibility the night cases actually are. The emergency clinic vets obviously finish at 8am. The day vets mustn't start till 8.45 - which, in my experience, is pretty standard. Either the day vets need to be on site ready to start work at 8am (and I can see why covering the rota for this job is proving difficult - the day shift would be a long one) or the night vets need to stay longer.

As I have said before, I can sympathise with the managers. They are obviously trying to find a compromise that doesn't force the night vet to stay longer every day, while making the daytime shift more acceptable to those staff.

Anon - what solution to your practice's predicament do you see?

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 16:41:22 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

There are only 2 things employees hate.

1) the current system

2) change.

[/quote]

Har har.

In my pathetically small experience there is one thing that employees hate: being frequently forced by exploitation of their professional conscience to work extra time without pay.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 09:51:27 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]The host practice are getting an extra unpaid 45-55 minutes out of Anon because if anything went mammaries up while the host practice was deliberately unattended it would be Anon who got Chikosied. [/quote]

How?

Chikosi chose not to attend an injured animal (possibly for very good reasons) and then chose not to explain why. How is that in any way comparable to this situation?

As regards to the time where there is no vet on site, I have agreed that the OP should discuss with the management what would happen on the very rare occasions when an inpatient cannot safely be left with RVN s for 45 mins, or an animal is admitted which might die if not seen immediately.

I would assume, however, that both these scenarios could already happen. What if the vet pops out for food for half an hour? Nips to Tesco? Is operating when another animal arrives?

I just think that there is rather too much drama in the OPs concern, especially with regard to the nurses situation, which is largely unchanged.

However, if my 'shit stirring' comment offended, I apologise.

There are only 2 things employees hate.

1) the current system

2) change.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

An On MRCVS — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:18:27 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] I don't see that because I am a locum I cannot consider the potential impact of practice arrangements on my RCVS registration[/quote]

All you critics of Anon have missed this original point.

The host practice are getting an extra unpaid 45-55 minutes out of Anon because if anything went mammaries up while the host practice was deliberately unattended it would be Anon who got Chikosied.

[/quote]

Exactly. Thank you! My intention was not shit stirring, those comments were so disappointing.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Anthony Todd — Sat, 16 Nov 2019 16:54:32 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Wouldn't put it quite that savagely, but I do agree with you. It isn't right for a locum to get involved in practice politics. (Also known as shit stirring.)[/quote]

No, but usually stating the bleeding obvious [there you are, I've agreed with you....]

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 16 Nov 2019 16:04:41 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] I don't see that because I am a locum I cannot consider the potential impact of practice arrangements on my RCVS registration[/quote]

All you critics of Anon have missed this original point.

The host practice are getting an extra unpaid 45-55 minutes out of Anon because if anything went mammaries up while the host practice was deliberately unattended it would be Anon who got Chikosied.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 22:47:24 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I am a long term locum yes.[/quote]

Be careful with the tax man...if you work on a rota long term then you should really be PAYE. Locums cannot be on a set rota.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I am genuinely concerned about the extra hours worked eating into rest time before the next night shift.[/quote]

Fair enough, but the last post seemed to show more concern for the nurses. If you aren't happy with the changes for yourself, simply address those.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I don't see that because I am a locum I cannot consider the potential impact of practice arrangements on my RCVS registration. And the patient care issue. [/quote]

With respect, you are only responsible for your own work and your own decisions. If the changes end up putting you in a compromising situation, or affecting patient care, then you have every right to address it. At the moment you're working on supposition...you haven't been put in any compromising positions.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I had hoped to get some view points.[/quote]

You have. [quote user="An On MRCVS"]

The earlier ones were good. The latter two posters were very unhelpful.[/quote]

Lol...just because some of the viewpoints saw things from a different angle shouldn't automatically make them unhelpful!

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I don't agree, locums should consider such things and talk about them in confidence/anonymously if they need. [/quote]

You obviously don't have a typical 'locum' job. If you did, you'd just be providing temporary cover, so wouldn't be expected to be involved in decisions to change shift patterns etc.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

An On MRCVS — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 21:25:53 GMT

^ Gee, not the response I expected. I am a long term locum yes. I am not intending to shit stir. I am genuinely concerned about the extra hours worked eating into rest time before the next night shift. I don't see that because I am a locum I cannot consider the potential impact of practice arrangements on my RCVS registration. And the patient care issue.

I had hoped to get some view points. The earlier ones were good. The latter two posters were very unhelpful. I don't agree, locums should consider such things and talk about them in confidence/anonymously if they need.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 14:13:08 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]I wasn't referring to you, but the OP![/quote]

[quote user="David Mills"]The bare faced cheek of some locums astounds me, truly. [/quote]

Wouldn't put it quite that savagely, but I do agree with you. It isn't right for a locum to get involved in practice politics. (Also known as shit stirring.)

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

David Mills — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 14:05:04 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="David Mills"]Ha, and this is from a locum.[/quote]

I've been a locum 1 year. I was an employed vet for 6 years and an employer for 14. I haven't forgotten what it was like!

It's quite funny...as a locum I get to hear all the moaning and chatter that I never got to hear as the boss. I usually end up playing devils advocate, with mixed results.

[/quote]

I wasn't referring to you, but the OP!

God I can imagine the scene now, everyone catastrophising the what ifs and a locum stirring shit with a huge stick. No wonder they posted anonymous. The bare faced cheek of some locums astounds me, truly.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 13:37:50 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Ha, and this is from a locum.[/quote]

I've been a locum 1 year. I was an employed vet for 6 years and an employer for 14. I haven't forgotten what it was like!

It's quite funny...as a locum I get to hear all the moaning and chatter that I never got to hear as the boss. I usually end up playing devils advocate, with mixed results.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Nicola Cole — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 13:00:41 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Difficult to be too specific, but a large independent city practice with separate day and night team. Same business though really. I told a white lie kind of.

[/quote]

Ok, so my view has changed slightly with this extra information.

Management have discussed it and decided this is the way forward. There’s not two practices involved both vying to miss the 45 minutes inbetween day and night teams.

I would hope/presume that in those 45 minutes there is a vet nominated to be ‘on call‘ should phone advice be needed, or on the rare occasion that they have to hot foot it down. This often falls to the boss/one of the partners/head vet etc (although equally a rota would be fairer) along a ‘call me if you’ve got any concerns’ line. Likewise, occasionally vets do have to stay late if a patient isn’t ready to be left-this goes for any practice.

In an ideal world there would be a handover between day and night team (at both ends of the day). But equally if the clinical notes are good enough () re plan and client contact then that isn’t strictly needed.

As a locum you can walk away if you’re not happy with the situation. Personally I would try not to get involved with the grievances of the permanent staff-they need to go to management themselves if they are unhappy.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

David Mills — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 09:43:40 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I can empathise with their unhappiness. [/quote]

I can just imagine the back-of-house chatter.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Managers. Don't ya just luv 'em? [/quote]

This is why I'm really really glad I'm no longer a manager. Anything you ever do that is beneficial to the individual or the business is immediately forgotten if you dare to make changes that are perceived as 'bad'.

[/quote]

Ha, and this is from a locum. Seems a classic case of them overstepping their mark, it happens more and more frequently it seems. Whilst I empathise with their personal concerns, reading between the lines it sounds like everyone is winding each other up over it.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 07:54:08 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] They have just had a pay cut (no more overtime but lieu only that they never get to take) [/quote]

That's not a pay cut.

I have known some staff stay longer after their shift, or come in early, when working more efficiently or allowing other people to take over would make overtime unnecessary. Some use it to top up an income. (Not everyone). Oddly, it can be difficult to get some people to leave at the end of their shift. Maybe this is an issue?

However, if people are volunteering to work overtime to cover short staffing, then this will not work as, like you say, there is unlikely to be spare time to take!

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]and now increase in their responsibility.[/quote]

Don't get drawn in to the nurses' arguments. It isn't an increase in their responsibility. Their job is unchanged. They may be expected to look after a case or triage a new case until the vet is on site, but they are already getting paid to do that. If a vet was in theatre from 4am till 6am, they'd be 'alone' with inpatients and new cases.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I can empathise with their unhappiness. [/quote]

I can just imagine the back-of-house chatter.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Managers. Don't ya just luv 'em? [/quote]

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

Alison Clare Hickman — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 06:32:19 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] say the needs of the business must be met etc etc[/quote]

How very charming, not. And. Just so they know, +and I know you know+ the bloody (literally and metaphorically) staff are PART of the needs of the business... Damned clots, it's short-sighted business (mis) management. It is no doubt an unimaginative knee jerk reaction to a waning profit margin and escalating costs. However, as the workforce will soon start shedding. Then what???

Sorry. Rant over.

RE: Trnsferring unstable unfit to travel cases

An On MRCVS — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 04:06:20 GMT

OP here. Sincere thanks for all comments

Difficult to be too specific, but a large independent city practice with separate day and night team. Same business though really. I told a white lie kind of. Busy. Would have seizures, collapsed etc brought in between 6.30 and 8am pretty regularly. Twice in a week.

Personally am disappointed and concerned about this plan. It leaves the nurses very unhappy to start. They have just had a pay cut (no more overtime but lieu only that they never get to take) and now increase in their responsibility. I can empathise with their unhappiness.

The plan clearly relies on coaxing the night vet to stay longer despite doing 13 hour night shifts, 7 nights in a row. And despite being the most organised and healthy I can be, I am still a zombie by the end of night 5. I's imagine it's almost like taking psychotic drugs ( though never have) to do 13 hours running around and then do another 45 mins at least once a week and drive home. Seven nights in a row.

I can see trouble ahead. Yes have tried to discuss. This management tean is very 'closed', defensive, difficult to raise any concerns. They say the needs of the business must be met etc etc. And they see critique of this plan as overly negative. Managers. Don't ya just luv 'em?