American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

The SkepVet — Sat, 01 Aug 2009 12:56:35 GMT

Odd that this should be one of today's aol 'headlines'.... Anyone tried a laser on them?

http://www.pawnation.com/2009/07/31/is-canine-disarming-the-solution-for-agressive-dogs/?icid=webmail|wbml-aol|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pawnation.com%2F2009%2F07%2F31%2Fis-canine-disarming-the-solution-for-agressive-dogs%2F

Art Malernee dvm

The SkepVet

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:07:57 GMT

[quote user="Robert Whiteford"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Did you radiograph their teeth?[/quote]

No we didnt. I dont think many of us were radiographing teeth 30 years ago and especially not in dogs belonging to drovers!! Point taken tho.....

Maybe they didnt have any periapical pathology?

It's OK, just making a point as I think you guessed.

And I know it was common practice; probably still is.

But: if you cut off the top of a tooth you expose the pulp and (unless you immediately do endodontic treatment) you create a chronic pulpitis, and periapical pathology inevitably follows unless the dog is very very lucky (or maybe just old); and as far as we can judge from human dentistry, which is likely to be a pretty good guide in this case, that means chronic toothache.

[/quote]

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

Robert Whiteford — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:52:35 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Did you radiograph their teeth?[/quote]

No we didnt. I dont think many of us were radiographing teeth 30 years ago and especially not in dogs belonging to drovers!! Point taken tho.....

Maybe they didnt have any periapical pathology?

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:42:40 GMT

[quote user="Robert Whiteford"] I knew several of these dogs for years after and none of them showed any adverse affects.[/quote]

Did you radiograph their teeth? I will bet they all had some periapical pathology and therefore very probably chronic toothache.

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

The SkepVet — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:10:09 GMT

We used to regularly saw off the crowns of the canine teeth of working collies >>>

In the USA If you do a vital pulpotomy you can charge more for "sawing off the crowns".

I saw the other day that Cesar Milan's show had been nominated for an Emmy award for "Outstanding Reality Show", for the 3rd straight year.

Art Malernee dvm

The SkepVet

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

Robert Whiteford — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:42:10 GMT

We used to regularly saw off the crowns of the canine teeth of working collies that worked in the market but were over-enthusiastic in driving sheep and sometimes "took a grip" of an uncompliant sheep. Had we not done this the drover would have lost his job at the market (for it was his dog) and the dog would have been put down. These dogs were invariably those lovely stuck to the masters leg type of collie and showed no other type of aggression. I thought at the time we were doing the dog a favour and keeping the master in a job......now I wonder. I knew several of these dogs for years after and none of them showed any adverse affects.

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

The SkepVet — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:10:25 GMT

disarming laws in USA

After Jan. 1, California municipalities will be barred from banning veterinary medical procedures deemed lawful by the state, per a bill signed by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger earlier this month and championed by the California Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA).

The enactment of SB 762 represents a “huge victory” for CVMA, considering leaders have fought local bans on licensed veterinary procedures since 2003, when West Hollywood became the nation’s first city to deem performing a feline declaw for nontherapeutic purposes a criminal misdemeanor.

Art Malernee dvm

The SkepVet

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

The SkepVet — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:41:41 GMT

I wasn't sure what you were getting at before this post, but I am in agreement with the person whose post you have pasted about the ethics of the procedure, although I have no knowledge as to whether it has ever been common/popular anywhere.

I don't consider if to be an ethical procedure for a variety of reasons:>>>>>

Do vets in the UK inform their clients that there are other vets who endorse the proceedure before UK vets use a "ethical" proceedure to kill their patients.? Are claims by vets on the internet that cats cannot legally be declawed in other countries outside the USA bogus claims?

Here is the American Veterinary Dental College's position (below) in case you missed it.

quote from the AVDC
Removal or Reduction of Teeth as a Treatment for Canine or Feline Aggression

Crown amputation or extraction of multiple teeth in management of canine and feline aggression (sometimes referred to as "disarming") is a controversial topic. The AVDC endorses this procedure in selected cases, in combination with behavioral modification of dogs and cats that bite.

The extent of the dental procedure may vary in individual cases from crown amputation of canine teeth to extraction of all teeth. All dental treatments must be performed appropriately, under general anesthesia, understanding the disadvantages and risks related to the procedure.

Crown amputations must reduce crown height appropriately, and remaining tooth structure requires endodontic therapy, including periodic long-term radiographic evaluation. Crown amputation with endodontic therapy or extraction of multiple teeth rarely causes long-term complications. Appropriate pain management measures are essential for any of these procedures.

It must be understood that removal or reduction of teeth as a treatment for canine or feline aggression will not absolutely prevent injury to people or to other animals.

Adopted by the Board of Directors, April 23, 2005
end quote
Art Malernee dvm

The SkepVet

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

Mark Frost — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:47:32 GMT

[quote user="The SkepVet"]

It looks to me like there are some vets in the USA who do not agree disarming was popular in the 80. Does anyone know who the internet vet Dr. Mac is? See his post (below) He post three or four times a week on the AOL vet-vet board which is open to the public to read and always has a lot of his vet friends that suport him when he post. Here is his post after I posted the boarded dental vets position about treating aggressive pets and let eveyone know I treat aggressive pets with what vets on vetsurgeon call "nonsense" . Am I the only vet in the world that will offer clients option 5 before giving them option 1? In the USA option 1 it is allowed by law. What does the law say if anything about declaw and tooth extraction in other countries for treating aggression? In those countries where vets are not allowed to declaw does that apply to treating aggressive animals?

Post from dr mac on aol vet-vet board
=This procedure apparently was popular in the 80s but as more educated vets learned about behavior modification, they moved away from this "barbaric and archaic so-called treatment".=

No, it was NEVER popular.
It was ALWAYS, quite properly, been considered stupid and cruel, at least for the past 40 years, and In the more than dozen veterinary practices with which I have been associated, in NY, Mass, NC, Australia , and RI, since I became a veterinarian in 1972, and amongst the hundreds colleagues with whom I have had the honor to be associated, I have NEVER met a single veterinarian who would consider doing such a miserable thing .
Mussolini was shown in a famous picture playing with a pair of lions to show his machismo. It turned out that the lions had had their teeth removed. Ever since this sham was made public, the picture has stood as a testament to man's foolish vanity and cruelty. I have never met anyone evil enough to respond ' Hey, what a clever idea!' and I hope I never do. - Dr. Mac
******

Art Malernee dvm

The SkepVet

[/quote]

I don't consider if to be an ethical procedure for a variety of reasons:

(1) Euthanasia is an option that if done well results in no/minimal stress or pain to the animal, therefore welfare is not an issue I think with this option.

(2) Disarming procedures do not get to the underlying cause of the aggression, which can itself be a significant cause of stress to the animal and therefore compromise its welfare.

(3) Significant damage CAN be done even without biting/scratching regardless of any legal definition, through the sheer size and power of some animals.

(4) I think that your options 2 - 4 can all be appropriate options with a committed client and dependant on the dog and nature of the underlying problem.

I do not think that trials apply to these cases with the exception of drugs, and some behavioural modification options.

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

The SkepVet — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:09:39 GMT

Art Malernee dvm

The SkepVet

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

The SkepVet — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:43:08 GMT

Dear Dr Malernee

You may just be putting out random thoughts for perusal by those who may be interested. In which case, thank you. >>>

Your welcome Dr Evelyn Barour-Hill. Thank you for your post.

Art Malernee dvm

The SkepVet

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:00:26 GMT

Dear Dr Malernee

You may just be putting out random thoughts for perusal by those who may be interested. In which case, thank you.

Or you may be wishing to open a discussion. In which case, it would be as well to explain what on earth you are on about.

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

Stephen Ashman — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:29:28 GMT

[quote user="The SkepVet"] I always am skeptical but assume they are really confused[/quote]

Your posts are consistently confusing, Art. So I think you are right, people are confused.

Oh, and rather than answering questions you seem to side-step them and provide a new reference without explaining to people how it links to the last comment.

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

The SkepVet — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:00:13 GMT

Forgot to add that in the USA when we say "putting patients down" or putting them to sleep we really mean killing them.

It can be difficult to know on this list why people demand I answer questions. I always am skeptical but assume they are really confused rather than intimidating bullies even when they want me to esplain in 50 words or less.

art malenree dvm

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

The SkepVet — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:19:38 GMT

Art,

In 1 sentence of less then 50 words can you please explain what point your trying to make?

Regards

Blair>>>>

The Weeble option is the so called disarming proceedure. Is it done in the UK? Are you allowed in the UK to declaw and extract teeth to prevent injury to clients? If not I suspect that may be the reason its called nonsense.

art malernee dvm

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

The SkepVet — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:57:13 GMT

Have you really got a donkey, or is it only a metaphorical one? I presume that is what you mean, as the possible alternative interpretation would be as something grossly offensive. Twll dyn.

I wasn't aware I was asking you to " " believe" " me, Dr. Malernee.

Have you actually got a point to make? >>>>>

I believe there are 5 controversial options when we treat aggressive dogs

1.put your patients down

2. modify behavior

3. alter their envionment.

4. drugs

5. make them into Weebles which may be more effective than 1-4

Art Malernee dvm

The SkepVet

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

beldather — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:33:34 GMT

Art,

In 1 sentence of less then 50 words can you please explain what point your trying to make?

Regards

Blair

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:45:58 GMT

[quote user="The SkepVet"] nonsense- my ass! Why not promote its mutilation pure and simple . That should get us to "believe" you. [/quote]

Have you really got a donkey, or is it only a metaphorical one? I presume that is what you mean, as the possible alternative interpretation would be as something grossly offensive. Twll dyn.

I wasn't aware I was asking you to " " believe" " me, Dr. Malernee.

Have you actually got a point to make?

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

The SkepVet — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:18:20 GMT

here is a clients post off a vet-vet newsgroup open to clients about what her vets think about disarming proceedures saying that it was popular in the 80s.

*****

I took my previously aggressive ACD to the vet this past week and mentioned that I read about this online and both of my vets (one who is in his 60s, the other in her 30s) were appalled that people still do such cruel procedures to their animals. The older vet continued to say it was the vet trying to make money through surgery, laziness on the owner's part, or perhaps signs of an inexperienced owner who should either get a behaviorist involed ASAP or consider a different breed or no pets altogether. This procedure apparently was popular in the 80s but as more educated vets learned about behavior modification, they moved away from this "barbaric and archaic so-called treatment".

Now for my personal feelings about it -- if you have, for example, a mentally challenged child who cannot grasp that biting is not right, do you pull all his/her teeth out so they won't bite people anymore? NO! You patiently work (and repeatedly practice) the correct way to act around others.

My female ACD had severe aggression issues when she first came here and even badly attacked my beagle. I worked with her DAILY and now the girls are best of pals, playing together, sharing a crate if they want a nap, etc. As a precaution, I crate them when I leave them alone at home but they have free roam of the house otherwise. I'm not a pro but I am patient with the animals and show them that I am boss but also that I love them. By the way, the ACD was going to a shelter because she got in a fight with the other female at her previous home (where they probably would have put her down because of aggression). This was 4 years ago. She's 6 now and very obedient. She doesn't attack unless instructed to do so.

Marie & the Dingo Pack

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

The SkepVet — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:43:42 GMT

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. Why should there be mention of "disarming dental procedures" in that letter? Is there something going on in the USA with this Milan chap or Merial that heavily involves disarming dental procedures? Tell us more.>>>>

Mr Millan, Petco , Merial, USA boarded dental vets(AVDC) and USA boarded behavior vets all have dogs in the hunt now.

here is a reply letter from a big USA pet shop chain called Petco that holds lots of vaccination clinics at their stores. The non spare the rod spoil the child promoting vets are sending letters to Petco also. Mr. Millan has a pet care product line, exclusively available at Petco: http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/products/petco.php

..............................................................
Thank you for notifying us of your concern.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your concerns surrounding our decision to stock Cesar Milan, Dog Whisperer products. Through PETCO associates and relationships with our vendor partners, PETCO's goal is to promote responsible pet ownership by providing the products and information necessary for our customer to maintain happy, healthy pets. While we recognize that not every customer agrees with the Dog Whisperer training methods, Cesar Milan does promote responsible pet ownership by teaching pet owners to understand their dogs and build long-lasting, loving bonds. His products are of high quality and include tips and suggestions for pet parents seeking advice.

Thank you once more for offering the opportunity to address your concerns. If we can be any further assistance, please feel free to call PETCO Customer Relations directly at 1-888-824-7257.

Please know that we care about our customers and what they think of us. By letting us know when we fall short of your expectations, we have the opportunity to address your concerns and to be better prepared to meet your expectations in the future. If we can be of any further assistance, please feel free to reply to this email or call PETCO Customer Relations directly at 1-888-824-PALS (7257). Thank you again for contacting PETCO.

Sincerely,

Michelle C.
Customer Relations Coordinator

At PETCO, Animals Always Come First... Our People Make it Happen!

****

<<<Since you have raised the subject however: "disarming dental procedures" are clearly nonsense.>>>>>

nonsense- my ass! Why not promote its mutilation pure and simple . That should get us to "believe" you.

Here is the vet dental college's position.(see below) Remember is some areas of the USA a dog cannot bite if it has no teeth due to the default legal definition of what a bite is(see below). Laws are being passed in the USA where two reported bites human or another pet and the dog must be put down. A work around if bite is defined with teeth is to pull all the teeth. If you define Bite as needing teeth and you pull all the pets teeth the disarming dental procedures becomes a 100% effective treatments in eliminating adult dog and cat bites.(see below). I have seen clients given two options by the locums, death or dental extractions.

******
Removal or Reduction of Teeth as a Treatment for Canine or Feline Aggression

Crown amputation or extraction of multiple teeth in management of canine and feline aggression (sometimes referred to as "disarming") is a controversial topic. The AVDC endorses this procedure in selected cases, in combination with behavioral modification of dogs and cats that bite.

The extent of the dental procedure may vary in individual cases from crown amputation of canine teeth to extraction of all teeth. All dental treatments must be performed appropriately, under general anesthesia, understanding the disadvantages and risks related to the procedure.

Crown amputations must reduce crown height appropriately, and remaining tooth structure requires endodontic therapy, including periodic long-term radiographic evaluation. Crown amputation with endodontic therapy or extraction of multiple teeth rarely causes long-term complications. Appropriate pain management measures are essential for any of these procedures.

It must be understood that removal or reduction of teeth as a treatment for canine or feline aggression will not absolutely prevent injury to people or to other animals.

Adopted by the Board of Directors, April 23, 2005

******

The word "bite" is used in judicial decisions, statutes and local ordinances. Indeed a "bite" is a necessary element for statutory liability in 9 of the 31 jurisdictions that have dog bite statutes. The characterization of the action as a bite or a swipe of the teeth or claws is of paramount importance to bite cases which are based upon these bite statutes, a dangerous propensity, or ordinance violations that are based upon biting or bite wounds. The precise meaning of "bite," however, differs from one jurisdiction to the next.

Where the word "bite" is not defined by a statute or ordinance where the attack happened, courts throughout the USA hold that the dictionary definition of "bite" shall be used. A typical definition of the verb "bite" is "to seize with the teeth so that they enter, grip or wound." (Webster's Third New International Dictionary (1993) at p. 222.)

Art Malernee dvm

The SkepVet

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 17:19:01 GMT

[quote user="The SkepVet"] I see no mention of disarming dental proceedures either. Would anyone consider pulling teeth to be a punishment-based technique? In some areas of the world the law requires teeth to define a dog bite. Can you do disarming dental proceedures outside the USA?[/quote]

Since you have raised the subject however: "disarming dental procedures" are clearly nonsense.

To "disarm" a dog you would need to extract practically all its teeth..... although I suppose you could leave the 10s and 11s. A dog with blunted canine teeth can still do lots of damage with them. A dog with no canine teeth can do lots of damage with its incisors. A dog with no canines or incisors will do lots of damage with the big carnassial teeth..... the worst bite I ever had was from the carnassial teeth.

Not only would tooth extraction be useless, it could well make matters worse by giving the surrounding humans a false sense of security.

So....... except maybe in some very rare special case........ "disarming" is useless and dangerous. That's why we don't do it, not because we are not allowed to.

I can't see why you suggest it's a "punishment-based technique" though. How do you work that out? Are there people in the USA who would say "that dog's bitten me, I'm gonna punish it by taking all its teeth out!" Hmmm, come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised.

Re: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's letter to Merial

beldather — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:34:06 GMT

Never really watched the Milan fellow, but now that I've seen that clip, I might go watch a bit more cause that kind of training on TV scares me. I can understand why the group may be a little unhappy. That dog certainly didnt look calm, more just exhausted.

Once again I'm not quite sure what point your trying to get at, or even if its just a conversational piece, but if you require [quote user="The SkepVet"]evidence based randomized prospective trials[/quote] for this I'd advise not looking for it in a letter.

Interesting to see what happens in the long run with is dog whisperer.

Regards

Blair