Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Martin Hamilton — Wed, 02 Oct 2019 04:45:56 GMT

Throughout vet school we were taught that scruffing was a no no, though we weren't really given any real pointers on how to get about it.

I remember being in my first job as a new grad and my boss thought I was joking. From then on I was encouraged to scruff for multiple reasons, and it definitely worked, but usually it wasonly for the first time. Follow up visits would then become a nightmare.

Fast forward a couple of years, I've moved and I haven't had to scruff a single cat since I left that job. If a cat is fractious at all, or too stressed for an "elective" blood draw (pre-an, routine T4 testing etc), 100mg of gabapentin 3 hours before hand does the trick. Not only is it much nicer for the cats, but the owners appreciate that their cat has had a less stressful time (and we sell the gaba with a decent profit margin too, bonus!). And it makes future visits much easier.

Towels, as well as butterfly catheters being used in a medial saphenous, usually help a lot too

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Barbara Bennett — Tue, 01 Oct 2019 15:16:47 GMT

Gentle scruffing with circular head massage and a bit of neck tickling works for me. Cats are very independent but respond in most cases to this type of hypnotism. Even works on my own cat!

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Christina Smith — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 22:42:22 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Ok popping a ripe cat bite abscess?[/quote]

In the past 35 years I have never done a cat abscess without either GA or deep sedation. In the twelve years before that I had popped, punctured, sliced or hacked many, often in the owners' homes (the smell of TCP haunts me). I am sure I am right.

[/quote] strangely I have found cats most appreciative after an abscess popped. Then and after dematting with clippers. No restraint or at least minimal

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Bob Russell — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 11:10:41 GMT

I find change much easier than it was in the past!

I have better sources of information and advice at my disposal. We have referral centres which usually show us how we could/should do things.

There is less isolation for single vet practices although I am getting used to having a colleague working with me. Thankfully most of what we have done here is in line with what he has been doing in previous practices.

If it had not been so stomach churningly naff, I would have worded my advert a bit like that in Mary Poppins. Kind!

Gentle but firm handling covers almost all eventualities. I learnt how to hand;e cats by working in a cattery for some time prior to university. It has stood me in good stead over my career. More recent knowledge may partially explain why I have been doing things the way I do but the fundamentals have not changed that much.

Gentle scruffing is fine but holding on for dear life will stress the cat and cause a likely explosion.

Some people are 'cat' and some 'dog' people. It helps to be both (and a people person is the perfect combination). I have two out of the three!

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Sarah Keir — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:44:17 GMT

As with most change, it has nothing to do with the age of the person but whether they are open to the possibility of a better way of doing things or not. It is often easier to accept and explore change when younger but it does not mean older people are unable to change. The worst cat and dog handling I have seen is by 'middle aged' people, vets and nurses.

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:50:59 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]How on earth did she/he do it, I know I couldn't![/quote]

I saw practice somewhere and we were in the loft looking for something and I saw a home made wooden box - slightly bigger than a shoe box. It had a clasp and hole in the short end. I asked what it was for, and the vets father used it for giving IV Saffan alone.

When I saw practice all cat spays/castrates got 0.1ml Domitor and 1.0ml Saffan IV. You had 20 minutes, the cat went from anaesthetised to running away in about 20 seconds. It taught me as a student to be quick at spaying cats!

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

vetbl.locum — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:42:54 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]PS My very first boss used to inject saffan IV in cats single handed And they were not premed either![/quote]

Totally believing you [why would anyone make an untrue statement?]

How on earth did she/he do it, I know I couldn't!

Description or video please!

[/quote]

Video!! lol this was 1982 ! We didn't even have mobile phones

He just sat them on table Grasped foreleg at elbow Extended leg smeared leg with spirit after a brief clip with scissors then just injected into vein

No premed no stroking etc Out of box table injection operation into box

Rgds

PS Occasionally he would get someone to gently hold cat but usually not

I never managed it either

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:30:45 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]PS My very first boss used to inject saffan IV in cats single handed And they were not premed either![/quote]

Totally believing you [why would anyone make an untrue statement?]

How on earth did she/he do it, I know I couldn't!

Description or video please!

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Julie Innes — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:07:52 GMT

We don't really scruff at all, unless gently for IM injection, just in case cat suddenly turns at the sting (although we find if we leave their cat box open in front of them, they just shoot back in!)

For ferals, I prefer towels, don't like crush cages, as they always seem to wriggle and I'm never sure where I'm injecting. We use gloves and towels sometimes, with some of our more feisty ferals, and long sleeves a must (we have designated cat hoodies!)

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

vetbl.locum — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:24:53 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Whenever an older, usually solo practicioner is up for disciplinary with the rcvs common themes are no cpd in donkeys years and often excessive force or bad handling. I could give some real life examples but probably too shocking to post even anon. I realise this is a minority. I should add always male.

[/quote]

Dear ANON

Really? you are talking nonsensical sexist guff.

No not always male , recent case was older female.

Pray do tell your horror story (s)

No doubt I can recall several involving young female vets.

We all make mistakes and errors in judgement. CPD attendance alone does not make you competent.

Rgds

PS My very first boss used to inject saffan IV in cats single handed And they were not premed either!

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Christina Smith — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 20:39:07 GMT

We are cat friendly no scruffing, dog friendly gravy bones, ferret, guinea pig and other cuddlies. We bend over backwards to accommodate. No cows or horses please as no facilities. Fleas are most unwelcome we have means. Lice are even worse as our means are nearly exhausted. No fractures please or hips out of place these all require a specialist. Four strains of bacteria are better than one has anyone seen leptospirosis. Indeed I have my very dear friend only just survived the ictero experience. Just keep going and believing your instincts we are all animal people whatever belief

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Kate Richardson — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 20:38:17 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I have scruffed cats[/quote]

This is getting ridiculous! I[ or the nurse] always scruffed cats if I/we had to meaning I grabbed the scruff with the same force and intent as removing a sweater.

The other hand was stroking/holding/ where ever what ever. Pressure was increased wherever whatever as necessary..........

PS, and FFS, her/his mother "scruffed him/her with her canine teeth..............

[/quote]

Mother carrying kitten completely different.

Scruffing for what? For example, placement of an iv catheter prior to a GA? How about with the premed we use now, my nurse can catheterise on her own in 80-90% of cases.

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 19:27:37 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I have scruffed cats[/quote]

This is getting ridiculous! I[ or the nurse] always scruffed cats if I/we had to meaning I grabbed the scruff with the same force and intent as removing a sweater.

The other hand was stroking/holding/ where ever what ever. Pressure was increased wherever whatever as necessary..........

PS, and FFS, her/his mother "scruffed him/her with her canine teeth..............

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 18:31:11 GMT

Why the anonymous posting? Verging on misuse, methinks.

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Kate Richardson — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 17:50:49 GMT

Anon- if any of these negative experiences occurred in a Cat Friendly accredited clinic, please can you PM me in complete confidence. Although, if solo practitioners, I am suspecting unlikely.

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

An On MRCVS — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 16:25:17 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

^ great post.

Sadly I have heard many tales of excessive force used for restraint of cats especially from older members of the profession.

Hopefully attitudes are changing.

[/quote]

Why post that ? I think, I find your post somewhat upsetting and ageist. Older vets dealt with animals with tools(drugs) available then. Most have adapted as new tools become available.

Compare that, to my opinion that vets, mostly young, have a poor attitude to use of 'cage rest' as a viable fracture repair technique in cats as they seem to prefer to remove fractured leg.( Assuming 'gold standard'is not an option)

Just because attitudes are changing don't make them right.

Rgds

PS I have scruffed cats but prefer not to, BUT it is justifiable to prevent injury to me, staff, owner & CAT!

[/quote]

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

vetbl.locum — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 13:19:38 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Sit it on the potty before the journey?

Only if if it is a porcelain potty trained cat, I guess

I don't believe in changing things for the sake of it, but sometimes there is a better way.

Agreed I remember so many greatest breakthrough false dawns BTW that is how I use EBVM ie no change until something is proved to be better than before.

Anyway, what do you class as older member of the profession? Qualifying before when?

Those who qualified before me (1982) are the old ones

[/quote]

Rgds

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:48:20 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]Anyway, what do you class as older member of the profession? Qualifying before when? [/quote]

More what drugs were available and the relative benefits and disadvantages of them.

[my boss in 1975 still cut colts with chloroform.....]

We had no Acp in NZ before 1967, or later, thiambendazole had just come in for LA parasite control, Maxolon started in1967 [medical pack] etc etc. We used Kemithal not thio when I started and Themalon and thio was all we had for B/S even in UK prior to the Stephens.....

eg I wager within 5 years I/V GA for say a cat spay, will be a thing of the distant past.

Makes me laugh a bit though, 'cos here we are denigrating older vets yet we still hear of multiple staff holding down a very unhappy dog having it's nails cut too short.....

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Kate Richardson — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:31:50 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"] I find your post somewhat upsetting and ageist. Older vets dealt with animals with tools(drugs) available then. Most have adapted as new tools become available.[/quote]

I don't think the poster meant to be ageist, but can see how it comes across that way and is making a generalisation, which isn't necessarily true. I have come across vets of all ages with poor cat handling skills and a lack of understanding of even basic cat behaviour. I had one young vet covering at my clinic whilst I was away, berate an owner for 'allowing her cat to defaecate in its basket on the journey'- understandably the owner was quite upset a) for the cat and b) how the hell was she supposed to stop the cat ding it? Sit it on the potty before the journey?

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]Just because attitudes are changing don't make them right.[/quote]

I 100% agree. With cat behaviour and handling however, the level of our understanding is much greater and because there are potentially benefits to be had by all by adapting the way we work with cats, it's something that I believe should be given a chance. I don't believe in changing things for the sake of it, but sometimes there is a better way.

Anyway, what do you class as older member of the profession? Qualifying before when?

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

vetbl.locum — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 10:59:37 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

^ great post.

Sadly I have heard many tales of excessive force used for restraint of cats especially from older members of the profession.

Hopefully attitudes are changing.

[/quote]

Why post that ? I think, I find your post somewhat upsetting and ageist. Older vets dealt with animals with tools(drugs) available then. Most have adapted as new tools become available.

Just because attitudes are changing don't make them right.

Rgds

PS I have scruffed cats but prefer not to, BUT it is justifiable to prevent injury to me, staff, owner & CAT!

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 16 Sep 2019 15:02:13 GMT

Oh, I don't know about the Colonies. It was certainly a familiar sight on the shelf in 1966.

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Anthony Todd — Mon, 16 Sep 2019 14:03:49 GMT

Acepromazine, acetopromazine, or acetylpromazine is a phenothiazine derivative antipsychotic drug. It was used in humans during the 1950s as an antipsychotic, but is now almost exclusively used on animals as a sedative and antiemetic. Wikipedia

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Anthony Todd — Mon, 16 Sep 2019 14:01:12 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]As a matter of historical accuracy, ACP definitely was around. [/quote]

When was it introduced? Maybe in the UK, but much later in the colonies? Or perhaps I've forgotten.............

Must have been around after Aureole won at Epsom 1960/61??

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:43:32 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"][Acp wasn't around[/quote]

As a matter of historical accuracy, ACP definitely was around.

RE: Scruffing cats - what's the fuss?

Anthony Todd — Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:53:23 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]In the past 35 years I have never done a cat abscess without either GA or deep sedation. In the twelve years before that I had popped, punctured, sliced or hacked many, [/quote]

Me too, but the owners were repelled and the cats weren't too happy either.... This was mainly before fine needles for I/V and before sedation too [Acp wasn't around and I don't think Largactil was for cats?]

Not many of you will remember stainless steel needles for resteilising with the penetration ability of a chocolate teapot.....

It's a much better job, and easier under GA too.