Nil desperandum…?

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Lucy Fleming — Sun, 18 Aug 2019 22:24:41 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

There developed a "reason" for covering Jersey cows with Freisian bulls so the cow:bull ratio made the calves enormous leading to caesars.....

Wish there were some current vets from Taranaki.......

[/quote]

I never worked in Taranaki but saw practice with Inglewood vets a few times, though mainly tagging along with Neil Chesterton on his lameness visits. I seem to remember Jerseys calving even cross bred calves more easily than HF types (I was always taught their pelvis was wider?)

Certainly have had NZ cows die post calving before - and also have had them survive some fairly horrendous calvings! One particularly memorable one was a huge rotten calf coming backwards, farmer rather over-enthusiastically applying the jack split the whole thing in half. No way of shifting the rest of it. Filled her full of pain relief and antibiotics and it came out in bits. They called a week or so later to tell me she had "calved the head!". I think cows are cows the world over.

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Anthony Todd — Sun, 18 Aug 2019 17:10:06 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]Far fewer Holstein cows [/quote]

There developed a "reason" for covering Jersey cows with Freisian bulls so the cow:bull ratio made the calves enormous leading to caesars.....

Wish there were some current vets from Taranaki.......

RE: Nil desperandum…?

vetbl.locum — Sun, 18 Aug 2019 14:10:52 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]Sadly cows do died post calving ( think that is rose tint on max)[/quote]

Could be, or it maybe that cows always grazed outdoors and fed on mainly grass with some hay supplement together with natural selection could also be factors?

Maybe some NZ LA vet will comment.

[/quote]

Maybe Less stresses I can accept

Also breed of cow ?

Far fewer Holstein cows

Rgds

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Anthony Todd — Sun, 18 Aug 2019 13:56:03 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]Sadly cows do died post calving ( think that is rose tint on max)[/quote]

Could be, or it maybe that cows always grazed outdoors and fed on mainly grass with some hay supplement together with natural selection could also be factors?

Maybe some NZ LA vet will comment.

RE: Nil desperandum…?

vetbl.locum — Sun, 18 Aug 2019 12:59:45 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]In some species the uterus and vagina have amazing survival skills!![/quote]

I hardly ever heardof a cow dying after any obstetric proceedure.

Amazing !

[/quote]

Sadly cows do died post calving ( think that is rose tint on max)

C section post torsion finished many cows for me.

So much so I became very reluctant to do c section if torsion was present.

Far better to untwist per vagina

Rgds

PS never used device that is available now

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Ceri Gruffudd Jones — Sat, 17 Aug 2019 20:27:20 GMT

My final calving call was also a small heifer with a putrid dead calf. I’ve a feeling I euthanised her. I remember phoning my husband on the way home and telling him to clear a path to the downstairs shower, make sure there was plenty of soap and a towel in there and not to attempt to speak to me until I emerged, clean.

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Julian Earl — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 19:46:20 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

hardly ever heard of a cow dying after any obstetric procedure.

I am suitably impressed Bob, but...

Perhaps you underestimate my ability to do a caesar badly?!!

Amazing ![/quote]

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 18:01:48 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]In some species the uterus and vagina have amazing survival skills!![/quote]

I hardly ever heardof a cow dying after any obstetric proceedure.

Amazing !

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Bob Russell — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 17:46:24 GMT

In some species the uterus and vagina have amazing survival skills!! Had a bitch here with major, major vaginal hyperplasia that she took great pleasure in trying to destroy.

I was horrified and did panic somewhat so took advice. Was calmly told the tissue is tough as old boots and not to panic. Reminds me we need to contact them to book for spay before it happens again!!

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Sarah Keir — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 16:51:41 GMT

I agree that not all sheep up legs. A colleague went to a lambing and it ended up with a really bad dorsal uterine/vaginal tear that was only going one way. So the vet gave blue juice and the farmer left the sheep lying in a corner of the field. Next day we had a call from said farmer - he had seen the 'dead' sheep running around the field. It lived to die another day! (hopefully culled)

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Julie Innes — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 08:52:41 GMT

Do you know, I'm really glad to read this! I haven't done large animal work for many many years, just in my first job. In my last week on my last night on call in said first job, I got the Caesar from hell- small limousin heifer that was meant to have been "jagged" (ie aborted), but had been missed. Farmer away with son, left with old granpa (around 105) and farmer's wife, who couldn't do much as she had a babe in arms! Chased said heifer around for around half an hour before getting her restrained, absolutely no way we were calving her, calf was dead. She insisted on lying down, so I decided I'd have to Caesar her lying down, gave her rompun to make sure she stayed lying down. Started section, all going ok, suddenly she jumps up and runs away, before lying down on the side I had cut open . Managed to get her back over, picked out the straw (like previous poster!), lavaged, finished section, and went away, totally deflated that my last ever cow section had been an unmitigated disaster!!

I left that week, so never found out if the cow lived or died- had assumed the latter, but reading your stories, you never know! Hope springs eternal...

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Busybee — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 22:23:17 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]But don't do it to a sheep - any excuse to die!![/quote]

One night a few years ago, I did a caesarean on a sheep. She had a dead smelly lamb and I gave a very grave prognosis but the farmer still wished to try a caesaean. She had the most horrible state of a uterus - the sort that tears when you look at it and stitching creates more holes with the needle than it closes up . I thought it was a done deal so didn't even bother to find out how she did.... Until the following year, when I caesared another sheep for him (in a much better state!) and he happened to mention that "that sheep you said would die, she lambed again this year!"

We've also had a cow survive after she burst out of the crush mid-caesar and ran around the yard with her rumen and guts hanging out. She did develop a whopping wound-site abscess though!

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Julian Earl — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 16:41:14 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]

ws can cope with a huge amount of rubbish in their abdomens and mostly come to no harm.

I remember a cow going down unexpectedly during a caesarian and all its guts spilling into the straw. I spent hours picking out bits but as it all was suck in the fat, most had to stay. I tried flushing with a hose pipe (dilution is the solution to pollution) but to no avail. I closed up and warned the farmer that infection non-responsive to antibiotics was likely. You you know what, when I called up a few weeks later, she was fine! And stayed fine!

But don't do it to a sheep - any excuse to die!!

Indeed, Iknow this! I have had a Suckler cow roll onto the open side during a caesarean. go over onto its back and back onto the left side before standing up again and trying to look innocent as we rinsed off the straw, faeces and assorted debris from the open wound and uterus. The wound never even swelld up and she survived! Incredible animals really!

As for sheep, don't perpetuate this fallacy. The likely scenario is that being a prey species they do not show signs of adversity but just grit their teeth or grind them and bear it! One only knows they've been poorly when the disease has progressed to the irreversible and nimminent-death stage. I argue that sheep are actually very tough and resilient. I've seen sheep with horrendously infected wounds that have survived and of course they will walk /hobble on feet and legs that must be excruciatingly painful when they have to. That's my two-pence opinion!

[/quote]

RE: Nil desperandum…?

Sarah Keir — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 16:15:58 GMT

Cows can cope with a huge amount of rubbish in their abdomens and mostly come to no harm.

But don't do it to a sheep - any excuse to die!!