Chronic grass seeds

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Julian Earl — Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:56:57 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]

I once saw a Spaniel with 16 grass seeds on its caudal forearms and and ventral chest. I'm not sure if they had migrated or pierced the skin locally, but they all decided to fistulate at a similar time.

[/quote]

I've seen a simiar case where a Spaniel had multiple seeds that had tracked up the foreleg to the skin over the ribcage and shoulder. I forget exactly how many but I probably removed about a dozen in total when I'd finished.

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 20 Aug 2019 20:07:39 GMT

I once saw a spaniel with 16 grass seeds on its caudal forearms and and ventral chest. I'm not sure if they had migrated or pierced the skin locally, but they all decided to fistulate at a similar time.

RE: Chronic grass seeds

David Mills — Tue, 20 Aug 2019 18:48:06 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]On yjis general topic, I've heard some colleagues say that bits of glass do not show up on x ray but in my experience they definitely do. A relatively Small but very satisfying jobs getting these FBs out! [/quote]

Silly dogma.

About 70pc of glass in the world has sand as a constituent. Especially true of cheaper glass like bottles, windows etc. So most if not all that is likely to end up in a dogs foot would show up on xray to some degree.

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Anthony Todd — Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:00:00 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Personally I feel that patience and keep on probing, feeling to the end of the tract with a pair of artery forceps or crocodiles. I'm not surprised any more when the tenth attempt pulls something out.

Neil

[/quote]

I wonder whether the newer stiffish nylon urinary cat catheters [rounded end, whistle tip] might follow the tracts better than stiff forceps that we all use/used?

Could also flush at the same time??

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 19 Aug 2019 18:45:57 GMT

It was mentioned by someone recently that dental xray is better for seeing grass seeds in paws, I haven't tried it yet but have lodged it as useful information for when I'm struggling with one in the future!

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Julian Earl — Mon, 19 Aug 2019 17:56:50 GMT

It is not just grass seeds! had a dog, a Springer if I remember rightly with a chronic discharging sinus from the foot. On x ray there was clearly a piece of wire behind the metacarpals. Even with seeing it, measuring distances I still could not identify the wire in the tissues. After 30 minutes or so of head-scratching and head-banging I spotted a dark region of a flexor tendon. This was the wire, about 1cm long that had penetrated and taken the line of least resistance up inside the tendon sheath. Phew, that was satisfying to find and remove!

On yjis general topic, I've heard some colleagues say that bits of glass do not show up on x ray but in my experience they definitely do. A relatively Small but very satisfying jobs getting these FBs out!

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 17 Aug 2019 17:15:39 GMT

Neil

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Rob Davis — Sat, 17 Aug 2019 15:19:15 GMT

I have once or twice tried injecting iodine-based contrast into a sinus tract then radiographing to see where it goes - can be helpful. Also flushing sterile saline into tract under pressure then releasing can occasionally pop them out.

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Roger Wilkinson — Sat, 17 Aug 2019 09:40:47 GMT

Ultrasound is the way to go. MRI and CT are surprisingly disappointing for detecting small bits of vegetation.

and ultrasound-guided retrieval is fab

http://www.vetpracticesupport.com/grass-seed-foreign-bodies-sonography-and-ultrasound-guided-retrieval/

...way better than carving big holes in your dog.

In a series of 40 cases subjected to CT the actual grass awn itself was only seen in 10%.

Vet Radiol Ultrasound. 2008 May-Jun;49(3):249-55.
Radiographic, computed tomographic, and ultrasonographic findings with migrating intrathoracic grass awns in dogs and cats.
Schultz RM1, Zwingenberger A.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1740-8261.2008.00360.x

Acta Vet Scand. 2017; 59: 12.
Preoperative and intraoperative ultrasound aids removal of migrating plant material causing iliopsoas myositis via ventral midline laparotomy: a study of 22 dogs
Francesco Birettoni,#1 Domenico Caivano,#1 Mark Rishniw,2,3 Giulia Moretti,1 Francesco Porciello,corresponding author1 Maria Elena Giorgi,1 Alberto Crovace,1 Erika Bianchini,1 and Antonello Bufalari1

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5310010/

It's easy enough to get sterile probe covers and sterile gel to do intra-operative US

cheers

Roger

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Richard Carter — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 17:27:02 GMT

we saw a little poodle the other day - discharging under neck for 2 months, one ga already performed, probed, various abs, nothing sorting out. Tried again and there was a grass seed - however I am now a bit dubious about the story of them rotting down to compost and the body sorting them out - this one looked as fresh as presumably the day it went in, spines and everything intact and when you hear of the grass seeds that migrate through the whole dog and appear in the lumbar spine area 6 months to a year later, dog enzymes probably not very good

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 08:55:19 GMT

I removed the granuloma from around one a few weeks back - had been FNA'd as a possible round cell tumour. Had been on antibiotics a couple of times and it recurred a few days after stopping.

It was wrapped around the jugular and the contributing veins. Right little b*stard to remove.

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Edward Jones — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 12:01:28 GMT

I'll always use dilute H2O2 before giving up on a tract - had a few seeds pushed out by the bubbles.

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Iain Richards — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 07:05:03 GMT

Isn't there a dye one can run into the sinus and then disect out all dyded tissue, meth blue rings a bell

RE: Chronic grass seeds

David Mills — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 22:49:44 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

The one thing I see is antibiotics or no antibiotics

We had one yesterday where the swelling was just above the foot behind the carpus, myself and a vet of a similar age concurred that take of everything and maybe poultice the area. My theory is akin to strangles in horses where you want to encourage the body to throw the seed out.

Thoughts?

Neil

[/quote]

Difficult. Depends where it is.

First presentation where it's unsure, yes. In the thorax yes, extend for weeks and hope the body sorts it out. Elsewhere? Not sure much evidence poulticing. Like noses I woukd probably put on 8w abx (amox) and hope macerated it that time and reabsorbed

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 21:38:54 GMT

The one thing I see is antibiotics or no antibiotics

Thoughts?

Neil

RE: Chronic grass seeds

nick shackleton — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 21:36:40 GMT

Worth a read: https://londonvetspecialists.vet/pain-in-the-grass/

RE: Chronic grass seeds

David Mills — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 21:19:10 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Very Topical

We've all had these. You know it's a grass seed, you've looked for it maybe twice, but the dog still has a discharging sinus.

What do you do?

Neil

[/quote]

Generally dig, and dig deep, if you can't find then take out all infected or inflamed tissue. Recently had one in a spaniel sublingusl with recurrent neck swelling and did the above around the neck, all the usual caveats. Came back from histo with dissipated organic material in the centre Resolved fine, owner came back thinking swelling recurred but dog had just put on weight post op after problem resolved!

RE: Chronic grass seeds

David Mills — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 21:13:24 GMT

My best one was a dog with a pyothorax (did fine) and 6m later presented with abscess on abdo wall. Two grass seeds removed.

RE: Chronic grass seeds

nick shackleton — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 21:01:41 GMT

I recall a former colleague performing spinal surgery on a dog to remove a fragment of twig from it suspected of migrating through the dog. I’ve seen ears of corn removed from the region of the radius and ulna in a greyhound.

RE: Chronic grass seeds

Beats — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 20:51:19 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]We've all had these.[/quote]

Are these the same grass seeds that I hear being pulled out of dogs ear canals?

I'd love to know what species of grass this is so I can check the geographic distribution. Never seen one myself, so I'm convinced it's not a local species to me.

RE: Chronic grass seeds

nick shackleton — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 20:35:24 GMT

If possible advanced imaging maybe a good idea to locate the FB. We had a patient with recurrent abscess at site of a previous cat bite abscess. Ended up doing CT and found a fragment of tooth embedded in the soft tissues as well as osteomyelitis to local bones at tail base