Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Robert FalconerTaylor — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 06:30:30 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

Animals maybe cannot respond to a placebo effect? But owners can! Fido is running a lot better since he started those sugar/water homoeopathy tablets!

Why cannot a trial be deigned

Just an idea to get statistical data.

[/quote]

It's been done and unearthed the caregiver placebo effect. I cited a few of the reports here

http://www.emotions-r-us.com/welfare/what-does-the-term-animal-suffering-mean-to-you/

I did a talk the RSM a few years ago on placebo effects in animals. I spent 6 months trying to find any evidence at all and there's non beyond anecdote. One paper (cross-over study) I found used ACP against placebo for fear in dogs. Trouble is, the design was weak and the dogs showing mildly positive effects on placebo could just as well be responding to the ritual the owners had to perform on the dogs before they received the drug/placebo! I can dig the report out if you want to read it. r

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Andreas Ege — Sat, 16 Nov 2019 23:39:43 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] when I heard that Prince Charles had become the patron of the Faculty of Homeopathy the other week. You would have thought that someone in a position of influence like that would feel a responsibility to endorse only things which at least have some tiny kernel of science and plausibility. Evidently I was wrong. [/quote]

I am a bit surprised about that. I would have thought it common knowledge, that Prince Charles is all in favour of homeopathy. (So much, that Prof Ernst feels he has been mobbed out of his job as professor for alternative medicine because he dared to critisize and apply EBM ethics to a report commissioned by the Prince.)

Unfortunately, position of influence and responsibility don't necessarily go hand in hand (I would actually say, too rarely...).

"(...)The current royal physician is Dr Peter Fisher, clinical director at the Royal London Hospital for Integrated Medicine and an accredited homeopath.

(...)

Prince Charles also set up the Foundation for Integrated Health, a charity that lobbied for homeopathy to be considered alongside mainstream medicine in hospitals, and sold a range of herbal tinctures under the Duchy Herbals brand until the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) ruled they were misleading.

He has even admitted using homeopathic medicine to treat his cattle at Highgrove. (...)" (Telegraph, Jan 2018)

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Homoeopathy/placebos are genuinely effective in [/quote]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] how much more could you improve the patient's quality of life if you prescribed something shown in clinical trials to actually treat their condition![/quote]

Even better: utilise both. ;-)

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]if animals are getting better with homeopathy do they need medical treatment?[/quote]

We were told at vet school, that 70% of our patients will be getting better, no matter what we do. The art is, to figure the 30% out that won't.

And I am quite certain, I have seen a lot of animals, that, in hindsight, had gone better despite our best efforts. That, together with our psychological biases, keeps re-enforcing that treatments that should work in my opinion, will work. The number of colleagues that tell me, when questioned about their use of ranitidine in dogs, "yes, I know it doesn't work, but it seems to help" drives me up the wall. Or how many practices still use peri-operative antibiotics for routine surgery like neutering, because that's safer - just done a locum in a practice like that.

And that's not even taken into consideration a completely different framework, as for homeopathy.

Or in other words, I think that's not just an alternative medicine problem.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I remain convinced that homeopathy is borderline fraud.[/quote]

I can never decide what I find more scary. The thought, that people really don't see that pretty much everything remotely unprejudiced says homeopathy doesn't work, or that they do know but don't care.

Considering my wife believes in homeopathy and keeps wondering, whether she should get a "certificate", I'm inclined to think in the majority of cases it's genuine belief, they are doing the right thing.

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Animals maybe cannot respond to a placebo effect? But owners can! Fido is running a lot better since he started those sugar/water homoeopathy tablets! [/quote]

I'd think they actually do show placebo effects. All the lame patients coming to the practice, suddenly not lame anymore? Basically same as a placebo, more or less. Apparantly, in FOI requests into, I think, Rimadyl licensing, there was a statistically significant improvement in the placebo groups, more so in owner perception, but also in veterinary perception (of course, there might have been other factors, like regression to the mean, been involved). One can definitely train animals to show placebo effects, as Pavlov did show.

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Why cannot a trial be deigned comparing cure-rates with conventional treatment and also controls?[/quote]

There are, plenty of them. So many, actually, that even meta-studies of pro-homeopathic researchers come to the conclusion, that evidence in favour of homeopathy is weak at best.

That's why homeopaths keep telling us that methods of eb(v)m are not suitable to evaluate whether homeopathy works or not, and that the best method would be an antology of anecdotes, i.e. a collection of case reports.

(I recently criticised the review of an Austrian "thesis" that came to the conclusion "homeopathy is an evidence based medicine". I was particularly impressed by the combination of the studies conclusion, and 3 paragraphs later it argued, that evidence based principled were not suitable to evaluate homeopathic efficacy - what now? Is it evidence based or not? Bit like the big B - can't be in and out at the same time {sorry, couldn't resist} ;-) )

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Andreas Ege — Sat, 16 Nov 2019 22:39:28 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]how popular homeopathy is in Germany, not least among the medical profession. Bizarre[/quote]

We invented homeopathy (Hahnemann was German).

When I started working in general practice in Germany, most first opinion practices had at least one homeopathic remedy in stock, though I wouldn't be sure how many vets knew (or know) it actually is a homeopathic "complex preparation" - a mix of different homeopathic remedies (which, acutally, is completely against Hahnemann's ideas, i.e. not really homeopathic). We grow up with it - Meditonsin, a non-prescription, over the counter medicine against sore throat, is a homeopathic complex preparation. My mom uses it, I used it when younger and before reading the ingredients list, and again I'd think most people probably don't know it's something homeopathic. Personally, I haven't made up my mind whether it works due placebo affect or due to 70% ethanol.

The vet profession, if my email list is any indicator, is fairly split. A margin all in favour and very convinced, a margin very much in favour of forbidding vets using it, and a silent majority, that probably doesn't mind too much if gets used at times but is not particularly enthusiastic either.

Ironically, while most homeopath's these days seem to be against vaccinations, Hahnemann was actually thinking vaccinations where a great new development. (At least that is what I have been told by people knowing more about Hahnemann, never got around to check if true.)

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Eamon McAllister — Fri, 15 Nov 2019 19:37:28 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Iain Richards"]The issue is the welfare of animals denied proper care.[/quote]One of the reasons I was spitting with rage when I heard that Prince Charles had become the patron of the Faculty of Homeopathy the other week. You would have thought that someone in a position of influence like that would feel a responsibility to endorse only things which at least have some tiny kernel of science and plausibility. Evidently I was wrong.

[/quote] He will eventually become patron of the RCVS unless HM outlives him. What fun!

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Julian Earl — Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:34:19 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Homoeopathy/placebos are genuinely effective in improving the quality of life of certain people with some conditions.[/quote]

Maybe, but crikey, think how much more could you improve the patient's quality of life if you prescribed something shown in clinical trials to actually treat their condition!

[/quote][quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Homoeopathy/placebos are genuinely effective in improving the quality of life of certain people with some conditions.[/quote]

Maybe, but crikey, think how much more could you improve the patient's quality of life if you prescribed something shown in clinical trials to actually treat their condition!

[/quote]

The demonstration of endorphin release was in a scientific trial and demonstrates that in chronic pain some people don't need medication, just that they believe they are getting medication.

I can see why the non-science orientated general public (including Prince Charles) might be led to think homoeopathy works. Boost this with an empathic clinician and you have a patient that has unquestioning confidence in their treatment.

How does this transfer to animal patients? We know people like to believe something is working and perhaps they get the endorphin rush the patient needs??

Farm animals should be good candidates for research as they can be divided into similar groups and their health/growth etc independently measured.

Of course it is scientific boll+cks but the programme showed just how impressive the human brain can be at self-treatment and self-deception!

[/quote]

Animals maybe cannot respond to a placebo effect? But owners can! Fido is running a lot better since he started those sugar/water homoeopathy tablets!

I agree that homoeopathy is borderline [ or over?] fraud.

Why cannot a trial be deigned comparing cure-rates with conventional treatment and also controls? A non-painful condition could be used eg false pregnancy? ow would homoeopathy affect the resolution of the effects compared to no treatment, and to hormonal therapy such as Galastop? No welfare problem is likely to be involved and over a number of cases it might or might not demonstrate the most effective "cure" Hormones/Homoeopathy, or compared to doing nothing?

Just an idea to get statistical data.

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Iain Richards — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:58:35 GMT

IT would be good if the homeopathic products could be removed from the VMR database.

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Bob Russell — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 13:39:12 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Homoeopathy/placebos are genuinely effective in improving the quality of life of certain people with some conditions.[/quote]

Maybe, but crikey, think how much more could you improve the patient's quality of life if you prescribed something shown in clinical trials to actually treat their condition!

[/quote][quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Homoeopathy/placebos are genuinely effective in improving the quality of life of certain people with some conditions.[/quote]

Maybe, but crikey, think how much more could you improve the patient's quality of life if you prescribed something shown in clinical trials to actually treat their condition!

[/quote]

The demonstration of endorphin release was in a scientific trial and demonstrates that in chronic pain some people don't need medication, just that they believe they are getting medication.

How does this transfer to animal patients? We know people like to believe something is working and perhaps they get the endorphin rush the patient needs??

Farm animals should be good candidates for research as they can be divided into similar groups and their health/growth etc independently measured.

Of course it is scientific boll+cks but the programme showed just how impressive the human brain can be at self-treatment and self-deception!

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 12:27:18 GMT

There is a flip side to this that I think we should also consider; if animals are getting better with homeopathy do they need medical treatment? There's a number of conditions we treat in cows that may well self resolve - coliform mastitis and endometritis being two. Lots of studies done comparing treatments but few done with an untreated control. Maybe there could be something in this and we could reduce antibiotic use and still maintain animal welfare.

I remain convinced that homeopathy is borderline fraud.

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 11:58:56 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Homoeopathy/placebos are genuinely effective in improving the quality of life of certain people with some conditions.[/quote]

Maybe, but crikey, think how much more could you improve the patient's quality of life if you prescribed something shown in clinical trials to actually treat their condition!

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Bob Russell — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 09:33:49 GMT

Homoeopathy/placebos are genuinely effective in improving the quality of life of certain people with some conditions.

Michael Mosley presented a really eye opening Horizon programme that homoeopaths and other peddlers should watch before spouting the benefits of their 'treatments'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bmblb8

They found endorphin producing parts of the brain could light up up like Christmas trees!

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Iain Richards — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 09:09:46 GMT

Piece in today's Times on how popular homeopathy is in Germany, not least among the medical profession. Bizarre

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:36:20 GMT

RE: Homeopathy top of the cascade in EU??

Iain Richards — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 21:49:22 GMT

From the summary (life is too short to tread the paper): There is, thus, a need to verify the effectiveness of homeopathic treatments in farm practices based on a lege artis treatment procedure and homeopathic principles which can be achieved by the regular monitoring of treatment outcomes and the prevailing rate of the disease at herd level. Furthermore, there is a potential risk to food safety due to the use of non-veterinary drugs without veterinary prescription and the use of other prohibited substances.

One can't verify the effectiveness of a modality that isn't effective or rational. There is no issue of food safety wehn one gives nothing. The issue is the welfare of animals denied proper care.