Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

Roger Wilkinson — Sat, 06 Jul 2019 19:33:29 GMT

Ooh I'm glad you said that Dave....one of those topics where you wonder whether there's a whole literature somewhere that you've missed!

I'm really up for banning the term 'DCM' and studiously sticking to 'myocardial failure' it's as bad as IBD and atopy as a diagnosis-substitute.

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

Guy Smith — Fri, 05 Jul 2019 14:41:47 GMT

Thanks Arlo,

Got lured in a while ago to read (only) the favourable comments about my website. I've been lurking in the shadows since, reading rather than writing. I used to find it very easy to cause offence when I brought my version of reality to VSGD and VV. Gave them up for a while, but have now returned to VV as a rather bland persona.

I'm hoping we're rather more grown up on here, and that my outrageous/old-fashioned/correct views may become refined rather than just repudiated.

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

Dave Dickson — Fri, 05 Jul 2019 09:01:05 GMT

Hi Roger

I've had a couple of cases of awful VT in Weimeraners. I remember asking Mike Martin about them and he said "welcome to Weimeraner DCM". His (and now my) experience of them is that they often get awful arrhythmia without the severe structural disease you'd expect. And they often get sudden death. I'm intrigued by your thoughts about immunodeficiency and I think you could be onto something with the myocarditis thing. We are far too quick to call everything DCM in dogs and I suspect in a few years we will start taking a more nuanced approach to canine cardiomyopathies.

Dave

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 04 Jul 2019 12:52:40 GMT

Missed your inaugural post a while back, Guy Smith, so a belated warm welcome to the forums!

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

Guy Smith — Thu, 04 Jul 2019 12:42:39 GMT

Around 50% of the insulinomas we've diagnosed in the last 10 years (n=2) have been in adult Weimeraners - so the headline caught my eye.

Having now read the history, I'd agree that vaso-vagal feinting sounds more likely.

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 04 Jul 2019 11:04:29 GMT

[quote user="roger wilkinson"]coming to this belatedy..... we see a regular trickle of arrhythmic Weimaraners in the grim North.[/quote]

Hi Roger! I'll monitor the dog - any other episodes and we'll sort out a holter monitor for 24 hours.

May be grim on your side of the Pennines but it's lovely in Lancashire

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

Roger Wilkinson — Thu, 04 Jul 2019 09:04:15 GMT

Hello chaps,

coming to this belatedy..... we see a regular trickle of arrhythmic Weimaraners in the grim North. Many of them echocardiographically unremarkable. Some of them with impaired systolic function but obvs could be tachy/bradycardia induced. A lot of them syncopal, usually VPCs/VT, often multiform. I'm not sure what disease they have...or whether anyone knows what disease they have. Some of them do have pretty high troponins and my suspicion is that it may be a myocarditis and my further suspicion is that it might be related to weimaraner-specific immunodeficiency.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14627235

https://vetrecordcasereports.bmj.com/content/4/1/e000311

cheers

Roger

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

Dave Dickson — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 13:11:47 GMT

Hi Anthony

I agree, this sounds like vasovagal syncope to me (VVS is a subset of syncope). Though vasovagal is typically benign, it can be associated with cardiac disease so I prefer to keep them all in the same group. The ECG looks ok to me but this doesn't rule out DCM - though I agree DCM seems less likely. You can't rule DCM in or out on an ECG sadly. I have seen DCM in Weimeraners, though it isn't that common.

You have a few options here.

1. Wait and see if the dog has more episodes. If it does, investigate.

2. Investigate anyway, if the owner is worried - with echo and Holter (to look for intermittent arrhythmia, DCM, pulmonary hypertension and cardiac masses primarily).

3. Run a proBNP and troponin. If these are normal, significant cardiac disease is much less likely so waiting would be reasonable.

Dave

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

vetbl.locum — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:40:35 GMT

More likely, a Brexit party leaflet as dog defecated

Rgds

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:38:27 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Vasovagal rather than syncope sounding to me[/quote]

That was my initial thought too but didn't want to dismiss the case in case it was early DCM and pimobendan could help. Looking at the ECG I don't think so though.

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:36:51 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]was violently sick later in the day, defecated then collapsed[/quote]

Vasovagal rather than syncope sounding to me

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"] that had ripped up the post through the letterbox, was violently sick later in the day,[/quote]

Maybe ate one of those labour party political fliers?

RE: Collapse in an Adult Weimeraner

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:36:19 GMT