Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

vs0u — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 16:27:59 GMT

Laura Peachey who's a lecturer and vet at Bristol Uni has done some work on plants for parasite control in horses - here are a couple of her papers

Peachey, LE, Pinchbeck, GL, Matthews, JB, Burden, FA, Mulugeta, G, Scantlebury, CE & Hodgkinson, JE, 2015, ‘An evidence-based approach to the evaluation of ethnoveterinary medicines against strongyle nematodes of equids’. Veterinary Parasitology, vol 210., pp. 40-52

Scantlebury, CE, Peachey, L, Hodgkinson, J, Matthews, JB, Trawford, A, Mulugeta, G, Tefera, G & Pinchbeck, GL, 2013, ‘Participatory study of medicinal plants used in the control of gastrointestinal parasites in donkeys in Eastern Shewa and Arsi zones of Oromia region, Ethiopia’. BMC Veterinary Research, vol 9., pp. 179

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

William Milliken — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 12:54:57 GMT

Thank you for your contributions so far. Very useful.

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 17:57:30 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]I remember in Somerset back in the 70s the older boys would be forever placing a spray of ivy in front of an inappetent cow. In fact it appeared to be their go-to "treatment" for most ailments.[/quote]

Dunno about cows or pigs but in Somerset a sick sheep would be nested down in a nice comfortable pen with a big bunch of ivy tied to the gate. It wasn't as therapy, it was to stimulate the appetite as sheep love ivy. If she wasn't interested in the ivy, she really was sick.

It was in Somerset that at least one old farmer showed me he could charm warts off cows' teats.

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 16:23:01 GMT

It's a long time since I read James Herriot, but I have vague recollections of him sometimes referring to traditional treatments that farmers had tried on their animals.

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Niall Taylor — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 16:08:45 GMT

[quote user="William Milliken"]In terms of allopathic, see here... This was because I was referring to the Soil Association.[/quote]

As has been said, 'allopathic' is an invented term and intended to be a derogatory reference to science-based medicine. Unfortunately some genuine researchers are found to be using the term, mistakenly believing it to be valid.

[quote user="George Cooper"]the older boys would be forever placing a spray of ivy in front of an inappetent cow[/quote]

I was just about to chip in with that one . In Cornwall in the 1980's the locals reckoned if an animal - cow, sheep or pig - couldn't be induced to eat poison ivy then its chances of survival were reckoned to be limited. And if it was eaten then it was considered to be an appetite stimulant.

Niall

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 16:08:29 GMT

Perhaps it would be useful to collaborate with the Veterinary Poisons Information Service or similar toxicology service?

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

George Cooper — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 14:35:41 GMT

I remember in Somerset back in the 70s the older boys would be forever placing a spray of ivy in front of an inappetent cow. In fact it appeared to be their go-to "treatment" for most ailments.

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Miriam Lodewyks — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 13:00:41 GMT

OK, so it sounds to me like this is something we vets should perhaps be supporting. As William says, it's more a case collecting myths and beliefs before they die out, then somebody else in future can perhaps assess which stories have any merit. So long as the information is simply collated and it's made clear that there is not yet any scientific evidence to prove the claims.

I too will keep my ear to the ground, and spread the word to my farm-vet colleagues.

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Bob Russell — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 12:30:49 GMT

This appears to be genuine study and even if these plants are documented then they can be investigated later.

One difficulty is that modern farms tend to have reseeded pasture rather than the very mixed plant populations in the past. My old New Forest farm clients would have had a wealth of 'knowledge' but so few will still be around today!

Garlic for worms/fleas/ticks/evil spirits/goblins? (Sorry had to have a dig with that one!)

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 12:21:31 GMT

Given that the list of medicines that were originally extracted from plants (albeit mainly synthesised nowadays, rather than cultivated) includes codeine and morphine, digoxin, quinine, aspirin, atropine, vincristine and vinblastine, paclitaxel (another chemotherapy drug) and galantamine (used to treat Alzheimer's disease), I think it sounds fascinating, from a historical and scientific context, even if nothing much comes of it in the end. It's hardly a suggestion to fling out all the tablets and replace them with herbal tisanes, as some seem to be suggesting.

I can't think of any folk remedies locally that I've been told of, but I'll keep my ear to the ground when I'm on farms.

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Iain Richards — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 11:47:41 GMT

William, there are a number of studies looking at helminth control utilising plants, chicory for instance. There are papers....somewhere!

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

William Milliken — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 11:06:02 GMT

In terms of the birdfoot trefoil reference, you may be right (numbers). What I really meant was that a proper scientific project, based on traditional use, could assist the production o new medicines.

The data collected will not be published as a 'natural healing bible'. They may will be published in a scientific journal, properly discussed and analysed. See, for example, https://ethnobiomed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1746-4269-3-11

Scutch grass, also known as couch grass, is Elymus repens. Widely used as medicines (under Agropyron): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313702953_Chemical_constituents_and_pharmacological_importance_of_Agropyron_repens_-_A_review

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 10:59:01 GMT

[quote user="William Milliken"]Any information will not be used to assist livestock or pet owners to use those plants unless they are known to be safe, and useful.[/quote]

I do think this is SO important in the world we live in today, where more and more people are distrustful of science and turning to alternative/herbal etc., which is at best untested or ineffective and at worst, downright dangerous.

The slight fly in the ointment is what your definition of 'known to be safe and useful' is.

There are millions of people around the world who would point to some of the worst scientific trials ever done and say they show homeopathy is 'safe and useful'.

Is this study safe and useful (bearing in mind Michael's remark about variability of worm counts and number of animals in trial).

[quote user="William Milliken"]For example, yesterday a farmer (on Farming Forum) told me that he grazes lambs (in the spring) on birdsfoot trefoil, to combat internal worms. The little data published in Britain (e.g. Medicinal Plants in Folk Tradition, and Flora Celtica) did not mention this. It was used on Skye as an infusion for treating styes, and to treat cut legs of horses in Somerset. I looked it up on the web, however, and found that a scientific study in New Zealand had shown that grazing lambs, grazed on birdsfoot trefoil under UK environmental conditions, had fewer helminth parasites than on ryegrass/white clover. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12581592.[/quote]

I think it sounds like a really interesting bit of research, and you would think that it would stand a better than average chance of unearthing some new treatment. But I do think the great majority of 'treatments' you unearth will be found to be old wives tales (or they would most likely have gone mainstream), and only those that can be robustly validated should be shared with the public at all (or farmers, for that matter).

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 10:32:16 GMT

[quote user="Will McMullan"]My brief contribution is that my farmer grandfather nearly every time he saw me would remind me that a broth made by boiling scutch grass (whatever that is) was/is a great cure for colic in horses. As I only worked with horses for a few years after graduating I never had the confidence to dispense with the buscopan and flunixin that my peers were using and become a scutch grass advocate![/quote]

A horse vet once told me, when I was a student, if you get called to a horse with colic try and get there quickly, as most will get better by themselves and you might as well take the credit..............

[quote user="William Milliken"]grazing lambs, grazed on birdsfoot trefoil under UK environmental conditions, had fewer helminth parasites than on ryegrass/white clover. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12581592.[/quote]

12 in a group. Knowing how individual worm egg counts vary I don't believe the study.

The OP seems well meaning, but I fear it's coming from a place of niavity.

[quote user="William Milliken"]I am an ethnobotanist, and have worked with local and indigenous people around the world, including Scotland[/quote]

I do love the "including Scotland" line - that cheered me up.

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Bob Russell — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 10:26:15 GMT

As long as this project is seen as a study of folklore it is of interest. I have no doubts that some traditional remedies may have scientific validity if studied thoroughly.

Sadly the danger is that it gets caught up in the world of charlatans where belief 'becomes' fact!

If the study is to document what has been used therapeutically in the past then it is to be encouraged. Some stuff may have worked!

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Will McMullan — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 10:15:22 GMT

I think the collection of this information is important (as a form of folklore really), but also vitally important to maintain a rigid scientific and evidence based approach to the use of medication and prevent potentially harmful use of 'traditional' or 'alternative' remedies.

My brief contribution is that my farmer grandfather nearly every time he saw me would remind me that a broth made by boiling scutch grass (whatever that is) was/is a great cure for colic in horses. As I only worked with horses for a few years after graduating I never had the confidence to dispense with the buscopan and flunixin that my peers were using and become a scutch grass advocate!

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

William Milliken — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 10:14:44 GMT

In terms of allopathic, see here https://www.soilassociation.org/media/15931/farming-and-growing-standards.pdf. This was because I was referring to the Soil Association.

I wrote this discussion, hoping that some of the vets may have learned from old farmers, or could recommend contacts. Any information will not be used to assist livestock or pet owners to use those plants unless they are known to be safe, and useful.

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

William Milliken — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 09:52:15 GMT

Thank you for your various comments. I am an ethnobotanist, and have worked with local and indigenous people around the world, including Scotland, primarily on medicinal plants. Some of the plants (or rather their properties) used by local people are still important in human medicine today, such as quinine and curare. Part of the project is to collect traditional information before it disappears. To me, this has a direct relevance. Next month, for example, I will be in northern Brazil (Amazonia), training Ye'kuana indigenous researchers co collect medicinal plant data before it is loo late. Some of the knowledgeable people are now over 80, and the information has not been transmitted to younger generations. This is part of their culture, but also, potentially, for their health and as an income in the future, if a new drug should be developed.

In terms of collecting ethnoveterinary medicines in the British Isles is, I think this is similar. Recording traditional knowledge before it has disappeared is important, just as recording traditional music or disappearing phrases. In terms of veterinary practices, yes, it could be an adjunct to rational medicines. Then again, it could also help develop mew drugs, based on science. For example, yesterday a farmer (on Farming Forum) told me that he grazes lambs (in the spring) on birdsfoot trefoil, to combat internal worms. The little data published in Britain (e.g. Medicinal Plants in Folk Tradition, and Flora Celtica) did not mention this. It was used on Skye as an infusion for treating styes, and to treat cut legs of horses in Somerset. I looked it up on the web, however, and found that a scientific study in New Zealand had shown that grazing lambs, grazed on birdsfoot trefoil under UK environmental conditions, had fewer helminth parasites than on ryegrass/white clover. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12581592.

Our project is initially to collect the data. The following step is to analyse the data (e.g. other sources). Finally (and more time-consuming and expensive), to see whether these plants could be used to produce new medicines.

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 09:49:00 GMT

William Milliken - welcome to VetSurgeon. Actually, I read up about your project when I was looking into your registration (asking myself why someone from Kew would want to join VetSurgeon).

I thought it looks like a fascinating project, though I too wondered why the title 'ethnoveterinary' as ethno means relating to the study of difference societies.

I'm not a vet myself, but I'm involved in a group which campaigns against quackery, so also very interested in the question Miriam Lodewyks asked above:

[quote user="GrooveJet"]What is the ultimate purpose of this project?

I'd be worried a lot of misguided people out there might be tempted to use this sort of information as a "natural healing bible", potentially resulting in a serious negative effect on many creatures welfare...[/quote]

Also, in case you were wondering about Niall Taylor's post ...

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]Funny, I have no recollection of ever having studied 'allopathic' medicine. I wonder if you mean 'medicine'[/quote]

'Allopathic' is a term invented and used by quacks so that they can talk about homeopathy as another category of medicine that is somehow separate to conventional medicine, without being laughed off the face of the earth. In this way they can talk about homeopathy as being alternative or complementary medicine, vs 'allopathic' (or conventional) medicine.

In reality, of course, there is no such distinction. Something is either a medicine, er, or it is not. Homeopathy falls in the latter camp!

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]"Ethnoveterinary medicine (EVM) considers that traditional practices of veterinary medicine are legitimate and seeks to validate them"

So, conclusion first, evidence second. Not how science works.[/quote]

To be fair, that wasn't William's definition, it was Köhler-Rollefson and Bräunig's posted by Jill. But yes, surely what that should have said is: "Ethnoveterinary medicine (EVM) seeks to discover whether traditional practices of veterinary medicine are legitimate."

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Iain Richards — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 21:40:03 GMT

I think this is a fasciating project and should be welcomed. There is a rich vein of history here that as William Milliken says, we are in danger of losing. There may even be new pharmacologically actives that come to light. Edit, knowing the ability of the forum to misinterpret, I'm not being ironic.

As a treatment modality, however, it has no place in treating animals, except as an adjunct to rational medicine.

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Niall Taylor — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 21:08:25 GMT

[quote user="William Milliken"]... allopathic veterinary medicinal products...[/quote]

Funny, I have no recollection of ever having studied 'allopathic' medicine. I wonder if you mean 'medicine'

"Ethnoveterinary medicine (EVM) considers that traditional practices of veterinary medicine are legitimate and seeks to validate them"

So, conclusion first, evidence second. Not how science works.

Niall

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 21:02:39 GMT

"Ethno-" does not mean "traditional"

(Any decent dictionary, any year)

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 19:22:37 GMT

www.crcpress.com

Ethnoveterinary medicine (EVM) considers that traditional practices of veterinary medicine are legitimate and seeks to validate them (Köhler-Rollefson and Bräunig, 1998).

Not to be confused with Evidenced Based Veterinary Medicine (EBVM)...

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 19:18:07 GMT

"Ethnoveterinary" ?

RE: Ethnoveterinary medicine: can you help?

Miriam Lodewyks — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 18:47:36 GMT

An interesting idea, but what are you basing your data collection on? Scientifically proven facts, or simply myths and heresay?

Are you intending to collect a plethora of myths and folklore to see what commonalities arise? Bear in mind that a lot of "treatments" are no more than placebo effect. Do you intend to verify the information you collect, and if so, how?

What is the ultimate purpose of this project?