Do small furries get a bum deal?

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 26 Feb 2019 07:19:28 GMT

We have deviated a little. I was talking primarily about small furries, traditionally kept as children's pets, and the odd budgie. Not the larger reptiles and birds.

[quote user="David Mills"]The weird expectation that SA GP vets should be able to deal with exotics, other than simple things is patently absurd.[/quote]

It is the refusal to see them at all that I think is difficult. Even for simple things.

[quote user="David Mills"]I don't understand why exotics vets try and encourage it that much. I suspect they make quite a comfortable living on the back of being an "exotics practice", and quite right too.[/quote]

Lol, not at all. Especially when over half of all appointments are taken up by hamsters and budgies whose owners just want PTS!

[quote user="David Mills"](This is not motivated by my serious concerns that the vast majority of exotics should not be kept as pets, and providing veterinary services to these animals (including "zoo medicine" ) is bordering on ethically acceptable boundaries) [/quote]

We actually agree on this. I spend a lot of time at work telling people not to own them. Especially cage birds.

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

David Mills — Tue, 26 Feb 2019 01:36:37 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

Funny how GP vets get bashed for knowing their limitations (in knowledge, experience, enthusiasm, time) in not seeing a particular species (and I'm not talking emergency/first aid provision), but it's a great thing for there to be cat-only clinics, and certainly no issue arising from the fact we don't see horses or farm animals, or for the specialisation of the profession from GP up to Specialist level to continue apace??

[/quote]

This.

The weird expectation that SA GP vets should be able to deal with exotics, other than simple things is patently absurd. In the same way as horses, cows, sheep etc. Trying to shoehorn rabbits and small flurries into SA practice is a failure of logic. It's also quite offensive to accuse, implicitly or otherwise, of SA vets trying to shirk responsibility. It's about knowing your limits. And, it's about owners realising their responsibilities when taking on these animals.

I don't understand why exotics vets try and encourage it that much. I suspect they make quite a comfortable living on the back of being an "exotics practice", and quite right too.

(This is not motivated by my serious concerns that the vast majority of exotics should not be kept as pets, and providing veterinary services to these animals (including "zoo medicine" ) is bordering on ethically acceptable boundaries)

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 20:16:21 GMT

[quote user="Liz w"]In your first paragraph did you mean vets at your practice? Because I can imagine most vets would think it a fantastic learning opportunity watching a specialist in action, but be less keen to try it themselves unaided and without advice. [/quote]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I guess they have the excitement of doing something different without the pressure of decision making in a species where they feel their knowledge is limited.[/quote]

Both fair points and it is always easier when you have people around you know are watching and ready to help so makes sense that they had more confidence when dealing with animals themselves while we lurked in the background. The older vets never did this though, the cases were refused point blank, rather than seen as a way to gain confidence and experience when there was someone there to provide input if wanted.

I also never had the older vets to skip a tea break to come and watch something interesting that was going on, whereas the younger vets were much more likely to come in and see what we are doing and ask questions. Though I definitely have got more protective of my down time as I've got older and wearier so may be a survival mechanism rather than disinterest.

Marie

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:34:42 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]Student nurses are always the most excited about exotic patients and can't wait to get involved. Do we just get more cynical and negative with age? Or learn to avoid situations from negative experiences?[/quote]

I guess they have the excitement of doing something different without the pressure of decision making in a species where they feel their knowledge is limited.

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]I personally think GP small animal vets should be able to triage and manage common issues in rabbits and rodents. They're mammals and they are seen on a daily basis in practice with some very common issues heavily dominating the caseload.[/quote]

However this I completely agree with, we are a normal first opinion practice and we see enough rabbits and guinea pigs to manage the common issues, and to have realistic discussions with clients about trying things in more complicated cases when they don't want to be referred.

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Rob Loxley — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 08:37:56 GMT

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Mark Rowland — Sat, 23 Feb 2019 10:15:45 GMT

I think this is more of an issue than people (and I mean the college here) realise.

There exists a group of non vets who call themselves rodentologists with no qualifications treating clients guinea pigs the country over.

I have had clients bring to me moribund pigs that have had ovarian cysts drained by these guys (never in the view of the client) that have died.

They carry out conscious dental procedures and dispense human medications.

They are very popular because of a perception by the general public that vets either dont know or dont care about guinea pigs. And yet there is a blind eye turned to all of it.

The answer lies in education

More emphasis should be put on exotics at college and more exotics streams should be available at conferences and vet shows. I did a talk on reptile anaesthesia at LVS last year. All about sc sedation and analgesia using alfaxalone/midazolam. It was well attended and I reckon the best way to get longer qualified vets to learn a bit where they were not taught is through venues such as this.

Its really scary doing a first time cranial cava stick on a g pig and people need to see it which is why I put a video on my App.

To catch up, vets need conferences and IT to help them. As has been said the information is out there. The college should look to the possibility of diversifying the degree at an earlier stage to reflect the demographics of the pet population and what newly qualifieds will be treating. I havnt treated a cow in years. I could still do it but I think with the increase in exotic pet ownership its too much (and too expensive) for dedicated newly qualified sa vets to waste time learning about farm animals they will never treat.

Im actually saddened that its taken a client to bring this issue to the attention of the veterinary profession I hope people see it as a wake up call that there are a number of clients with pets that are not REALLY exotic who do not trust us to treat their animals and that has got to change before the Cambridge Cavy trust dig their claws in deeper.

Mark

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Liz w — Sat, 23 Feb 2019 07:14:40 GMT

In your first paragraph did you mean vets at your practice? Because I can imagine most vets would think it a fantastic learning opportunity watching a specialist in action, but be less keen to try it themselves unaided and without advice.

I also remember the days when the ‘Pink Book ‘ was all we had to go on for exotic advice - the panic if didn’t answer your questions!

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Marie Kubiak — Fri, 22 Feb 2019 18:10:10 GMT

I'm going to go against the general consensus and say that I have found the younger vets much more willing to learn about exotics, and the older vets more inclined so say 'I don't see those...'. And I do think much of it is disinterest rather than a clinical reason not to see these creatures.

Student nurses are always the most excited about exotic patients and can't wait to get involved. Do we just get more cynical and negative with age? Or learn to avoid situations from negative experiences?

I personally think GP small animal vets should be able to triage and manage common issues in rabbits and rodents. They're mammals and they are seen on a daily basis in practice with some very common issues heavily dominating the caseload. Universities need to be realistic and teach about these species to a level that prepares graduates for first opinion practice caseloads, not just a token afternoon. And as vets we shouldn't be reinforcing the public opinion that rabbits are replaceable, they always die under anaesthetic and their welfare isn't important.

On the flip side, birds and reptiles are so different in so many aspects and medicine & husbandry are evolving rapidly, so that it is difficult for vets to see one bird every 6 months and be able to commit the time and effort into being up-to-date with current literature and confident enough to do a good job. And extrapolating from mammal medicine doesn't work! I've lost count of the number of feather plucking birds I've been sent for post-mortem exam that have been diagnosed as an allergy by a small animal vet and have been given corticosteroids for the 'itching'... Owners should take responsibility for finding a vet that is experienced with these animals, or be prepared to travel.

One thing I struggled to get referring vets to appreciate was that referral may actually be the cheapest option for an owner with limited funds. If I see a bird with problem X and clinical exam shows me Y, I have seen enough of combination X and Y to target tests very specifically. Conversely someone who doesn't see birds often may do a wide range of tests to narrow it down, or try a variety of medications in the water! And when that doesn't help if gets referred on as a sicker animal, with no funds and some inconclusive test results (and usually a radiograph where wings and legs are obscuring the viscera!).

Failing that, most of us exotics vets are very approachable and happily spend a lot of time on the phone to other vets discussing cases - call someone and either feel better because you now have a plan, someone agrees with your ideas, or someone else has no bloody idea either!

Marie

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

bob lehner — Fri, 22 Feb 2019 17:48:04 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]Personally I do not understand why people want to bond and form relationships with something else's lunch[/quote]

Oi Mr Grumpy - one man's lunch is another man's best mate....

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Lucy Fleming — Fri, 22 Feb 2019 17:27:51 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]There are issues here which I would love to address but once again I find the forum here to be quite bigoted on the issue from some members :)[/quote]

I hope you don't feel that's the case from the majority of members. I don't tend to contribute much to the exotics threads as I so rarely have any knowledge to add but I always find them valuable!

I think part of the change is that there is more expertise readily available than there used to be. I don't think there is anything wrong in making the client aware that you aren't an expert, and that they might want to consider going elsewhere if they want a more expert opinion, and if it is close by, but I agree with the others that it seems unreasonable to turn them away entirely. Seems to be common practice in the US from chatting to friends who are vets over there, but then travelling long distances for anything outside the ordinary seems fairly common there.

There seems to be more of a "split" among exotics owners (reptiles, birds and small furries) between those that know a lot, and those that know almost nothing and purchased the pets on a whim, and similarly a sharp contrast in the conditions they are kept in (more so than among cat and dog owners, who seem to be on more of a continuous scale from very knowledgeable to good lord how do you remember to breathe? poorly informed). Does anyone else find the same?

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:39:51 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I had a case last year that had a wound breakdown and the VDS wondered if I'd offered the owner referral before attempting the surgery, as I wasn't an expert. I doubt I'll do that surgery again, although my actual surgery was fine, it was a skin wound that broke down.[/quote]

That's just the VDS being thorough. Don't fret.

[quote user="Julie Innes"]When we first qualified we would try anything! Nowadays everyone is so litigation conscious it seems no one will attempt anything out of the ordinary unless you have a PHD in the subject! You can't blame them really-[/quote]

Yes you can. As long as you have made things clear to the client and you haven't been reckless (like, starting an operation that requires a piece of equipment that you don't possess), you've done nothing wrong. You've neither been negligent nor offended against professional conduct.

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Mark Rowland — Fri, 22 Feb 2019 11:47:23 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

Personally I do not understand why people want to bond and form relationships with something else's lunch ,its a bit like having a pet fish finger.

[/quote]

There it is in a nutshell.

I get pretty tired of this "in the pot " attitude.

Clearly from this article the public do too

There are issues here which I would love to address but once again I find the forum here to be quite bigoted on the issue from some members :)

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Julie Innes — Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:11:38 GMT

I think it's a symptom of the profession in general these days, sadly.

Myself and a colleague were talking about it the other day. When we first qualified we would try anything! Nowadays everyone is so litigation conscious it seems no one will attempt anything out of the ordinary unless you have a PHD in the subject! You can't blame them really- I had a case last year that had a wound breakdown and the VDS wondered if I'd offered the owner referral before attempting the surgery, as I wasn't an expert. I doubt I'll do that surgery again, although my actual surgery was fine, it was a skin wound that broke down.

The other day one of our clients had their cat escape in the street. One of our nurses went to help and caught the cat with the dog catcher. My immediate response was "shouldn't have done that- if cat was hurt in any way it's our fault". Sad times

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:01:12 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Being brutally honest, isn't it also just a little but of 'but I really don't want to'?[/quote]

I suspect so.

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 21 Feb 2019 07:30:25 GMT

[quote user="ebedford"]Do a lot of newer vets do that because they realise they don't know enough to do a proper job[/quote]

Well, with respect, they should learn enough to do a proper job. These are common pets. A basic knowledge should be there. All vet schools have them in their courses these days...far more information is taught than ever used to be, yet less people will see them! I don't think it is acceptable to just say ' I don't know enough about budgies so I won't see them'.

To some degree, the increase in knowledge has probably caused the problem. Uni now teaches more about them, and puts them in their own 'category' of medicine. Maybe it is thought of as too much of a specialism, rather than being a part of normal pet vet practice.

[quote user="ebedford"]they don't want to waste the time of the client or the practice by seeing the reptile/snake/fancy bird and realising they cant really do anything helpful, and think it would be much more efficient to get them to go straight to an exotics vet? [/quote]

What if the client is unable/unwilling to travel to see an exotics vet, for cost or convenience reasons? Can we just say 'not my problem'?

[quote user="ebedford"]Is "giving it a bash" really the best thing for the animal's welfare?[/quote]

As I said above, yes, if the animal is very sick and PTS is in its best interests, or has a minor problem (scaly face) that any vet should be able and willing to treat?

Refusing to see them at all will NEVER be in an animal's best interests.

Being brutally honest, isn't it also just a little but of 'but I really don't want to'?

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

ebedford — Wed, 20 Feb 2019 21:23:57 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

A lot of newer vets won't do that and just refuse!

[/quote]

Do a lot of newer vets do that because they realise they don't know enough to do a proper job, they don't want to waste the time of the client or the practice by seeing the reptile/snake/fancy bird and realising they cant really do anything helpful, and think it would be much more efficient to get them to go straight to an exotics vet? Is "giving it a bash" really the best thing for the animal's welfare?

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:28:20 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]A lot of newer vets won't do that and just refuse![/quote]

I've noticed!

And I think you're right - it does seem to be younger vets who outright refuse, whereas older vets (especially those of us who remember vets just looking in the 'pink book') are more willing to discuss their abilities but simply do their best, usually with the owner's blessing.

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 18 Feb 2019 16:36:48 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] I am all in favour of vets being honest about their abilities and offering referral if appropriate, and there are lots of vets around who will see and treat those furries (and feathered and scaled little beasties) that have committed owners. But the recent trend of refusing to see them at all is poor for animal welfare.[/quote]

I've told our receptionists off before for sending exotics consults to somewhere else. We have no one with a real keen interest in them, however all first opinion vets can have a look at a bearded dragon or corn snake and see if there is anything obviously wrong. A quick Google of optimum conditions and viv sizes, and you can get a lot out of a consult. A lot of newer vets won't do that and just refuse!

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Iain Richards — Mon, 18 Feb 2019 10:57:28 GMT

The AWF disussion day covers exotics: https://www.animalwelfarefoundation.org.uk/education-and-debate/2019-discussion-forum/ If you've never been, I can recommnd them as they are usually thought provoking days.

I suspect they do get a bum deal, not least from the conditions most are kept in. I'm all for a "Positive List" of those animasl that are suitable as pets. On my list, rodents just about get in to join cats and dogs.

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Julie Innes — Mon, 18 Feb 2019 10:30:20 GMT

Maybe our practice is odd, but I see a lot more rabbits and guinea pigs nowadays! Lots of people have house rabbits, and there is generally better knowledge about their husbandry nowadays, there definitely seems to be a trend away from the lone-rabbit-in-the-tiny-hutch-at-the-bottom-of-the-garden. loads of CPD available (and often free!) we regularly neuter rabbits and guinea pigs, and I feel GA and surgery has come on in leaps and bounds for these guys.

I do agree with grumpyoldman though re treatment options. They can be frustrating to treat, especially guinea pigs, as they seem to give up the will to live quite easily (although having said that, still not as determined to die as sheep!)

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 18 Feb 2019 07:31:24 GMT

As my comment has sparked a new discussion I'd like to expand on what I meant.

As has been said, small furries are small, wriggly and have very little financial support. They are also difficult to treat (limited options in many cases) and they do like to give up and die.

However, one of the comments I hear is' I don't treat exotics'. I am all in favour of vets being honest about their abilities and offering referral if appropriate, and there are lots of vets around who will see and treat those furries (and feathered and scaled little beasties) that have committed owners. But the recent trend of refusing to see them at all is poor for animal welfare.

Basic principles should give an indication of the degree of illness, and therefore the prognosis. Due to lack of finance, many of these creatures need euthanasia, and travelling 10 or more miles for it is unnecessary.

Unfortunately most of these creatures are 'just' children's pets, treated like their other toys, and once they are 'broken' they lose their interest. The best thing vets can do is to agree to see them, treat if it is simple (or offer referral), but if not offer PTS at a reasonable cost. It is heartbreaking how many of them die at home over a relatively long period.

I don't expect GP vets to be spending vast amounts of time and money on these animals, because in most cases it won't be possible or wanted. But because they are good at hiding their symptoms they can be inadvertantly left to deteriorate slowly over a long period of time by the owners. By the time we see them, it can be far too late to effect much change anyway.

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

David Mills — Mon, 18 Feb 2019 00:51:39 GMT

[quote user="Liz Barton"]

I think it really depends on the individual vet - some have a much greater knowledge base and confidence than... er... me, for example. When cases come in if they don't respond to empirical treatment, they tend see the 'rabbit/G pig vet' in the practice, or get referred. The number of lectures we had at Uni was laughable - 18 hours of pig lectures when I've seen about 3 pigs. 1 hour of GP and 3 hours of rabbit lectures, when I see several per day! One of those interest areas to develop with targeted CPD post-graduation. I hope the balance at Uni is now redressed to reflect clinical practice. Anyone know?

[/quote]

I'm not sure about this. Rabbits and GPs, small flurries make up a very, very, very small percentage of animals seen. I'd estimate about 1-2% at most of consults. Is this a fair reflection of their ownership?

Or the fact the only see the vet in extremis? Or the good owners go to more specialist places?

I don't know. I think the evidence around their diseases and therapy is very weak which doesn't help. Seeing prey animals or small wriggly ones is always difficult in general practice.

Is the only answer a specialised centre? I feel it might be really. But the cost of that may be even more prohibitive that the perceived barrier presently.

I don't think it's fair to say they get a bum deal. They are rare presentations. I wouldn't say they should attract a big navel gazing exercise.

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

Liz Barton — Sun, 17 Feb 2019 16:17:19 GMT

RE: Do small furries get a bum deal?

grumpyoldman — Sat, 16 Feb 2019 14:48:05 GMT

No not really ,exotics generally is about the clinical path . Which is usually what the clients do not want to pay for. We have had the odd 3rd opinion guinea pig on ivft for chronic intractable GIT problems where the owner refused euthanasia and while visiting was caught on CCTV putting bite marks in cucumber before trying to convince the nursing staff the moribund pet was eating again and should not therefore be euthanised. We have made great leaps and bounds in diagnosis without corresponding jumps in treatment options which frustrates GP owners in the same way it used to frustrate horse owners. We do the best we possibly can with them and the rabbits although again we tend to hit the buffers a lot more with fee limits. Personally I do not understand why people want to bond and form relationships with something else's lunch ,its a bit like having a pet fish finger.