TB where did we go wrong ?

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Kate Richardson — Thu, 07 Feb 2019 15:31:16 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]There are a small number of feline TB cases I believe in indoor cats where the only link is they were all on a raw diet.[/quote]

I did investigation 51 for AHVLA for a cat TB case. This one roamed and had the same spoligotype as the neighbouring cattle breakdowns. That's the commonest, they are acting as cattle, less sensitive sentinels to pasture contamination.

(Spoligotype is the type of TB, my memory is fading but I think it was type 21a. This is how AHVLA find out if an outbreak is bought in, they look at the spoligotype. If it's a local strain then it's probably local. If a different one then bought in and an investigation ensues. Now due to lack of resource and time this may not always be done and only the first confirmed case of an outbreak was typed in this way)

Interesting?? map at http://www.tbhub.co.uk/tb-facts/introduction-to-the-bacteria/

Where cats are an issue is a cat with TB, purring away on someones lap. (In my opinion)

Neil

[/quote]

These are a group of more recent cases I believe, all separate cases, but I think they were all on the same brand of raw food. But don't quote me on it.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Iain Richards — Thu, 07 Feb 2019 12:13:20 GMT

Neil - the skin tests has its limitations, but used as a herd test it will identify most of the animals. It worked in the 1940-1970 eradication and it hasn't changed. Personally I'd like to see either the single caudal fold test used, or the SCITT used at severe. More false +ve, but fewer false neg. Yes the old cow will be non-reactors, but, she should have reacted at an earlier stage. If you trace these anergic cows back, they'll have had an inconclusive reaction at some point in their lives, usually two.

Your exporter isn't the man I'm after, it's the importer. And as you point out the epidemiology in your case points to a pasture source.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 14:00:38 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]In NZ, the possum carried TB. People would actively cross the road with an SUV to get one. The major difference though is a badger is indigenous, a possum wasn't, so different values (and NZ has a higher GDP earner for farmers)[/quote]

It's also a lot easier to cull when there are no native mammal species to be concerned about, so can use poison baits etc , increasing efficiency. Selectively culling badgers a lot more expensive.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Feb 2019 11:14:34 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]NEil, the issue in the Shap area is that a number of breakdowns have the same spoligotype as that in RTA badgers.[/quote]

Doesn't say a lot. If this is a fresh spoligotype from NI, then 99% sure the cattle in this case gave to the badgers?

[quote user="Iain Richards"] at worst utterly reckless in the importation of cattle.[/quote]

You're assuming there that the skin test gets all of them, when in reality it won't. It's also a fact that the more full a cow is with TB the less likely it is to react. So here's can interesting theory in this case, and is quite interesting. For a cow to be one an open case it needs to be pretty riddled with TB. In this case the badgers have caught it, so it's an open case and it may have cleared both pre and post movements tests. TB isn't an exact science.

[quote user="Iain Richards"] Removing compensation would also sharpen the crap farmer's minds.[/quote]

And how would you explain that to Mr X who I looked after for 7 years. He exported his beautiful holsteins all over the country. TB crippled that. He zero grazed and did all he could, but every time we tested his heifers that had to be reared outside got TB, none of the adult cattle ever did. A TB2 (restriction on his whole premise) was totally inappropriate, that came in 5 years ago, when individual risk assessment was anulled

Neil

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Iain Richards — Tue, 05 Feb 2019 09:09:32 GMT

NEil, the issue in the Shap area is that a number of breakdowns have the same spoligotype as that in RTA badgers. It's one found only in NOrthern Ireland. So basic someone has been at best ill informed and at worst utterly reckless in the importation of cattle. Trouble is, they can't find that index cattle case. It's the selfish human activity that is my reason for wanting movement restirctions. I know that modelling shows no great problem with movement, but it's the knock on effect that is the issue. Removing compensation would also sharpen the crap farmer's minds.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Feb 2019 08:13:22 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Sarah Keir There is a TB problem in parts of Cumbria but it's relatively recent and nothing to do with the TB introduced with post FMD restocking. They've also found the same strain in some badgers up there.[/quote]

You can't make this assumption Michael. If badgers have the same strain as introduced cattle and this was a spoligotype from the West Country, then the conclusion is there has been transfer from moved cattle to the area and then to the badgers, it does happen, but rare.

I would suggest that the reason it went after testing is that the badger density was low, the local AHVLA stripped out TB aggressively with gamma testing and/or the farmers were pro-active. If you have a small local issue then all that testing and contiguous testing is worth it. In an area swamped with TB, all you are doing is creating work for farmers. There is also the fact that the more you test a cow, the less sensitive it is to the skin test (crudely speaking)

Neil

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Feb 2019 08:04:56 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]There are a small number of feline TB cases I believe in indoor cats where the only link is they were all on a raw diet.[/quote]

Interesting?? map at http://www.tbhub.co.uk/tb-facts/introduction-to-the-bacteria/

Where cats are an issue is a cat with TB, purring away on someones lap. (In my opinion)

Neil

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Feb 2019 07:56:05 GMT

[quote user="GrooveJet"]Neil, I'm just a smally vet, so don't understand the political aspects you mention.[/quote]

Mention a badger cull in this country and it's pretty contentious. The Tories having lots of rural constituencies have managed to get it going as it wins votes.

In NZ, the possum carried TB. People would actively cross the road with an SUV to get one. The major difference though is a badger is indigenous, a possum wasn't, so different values (and NZ has a higher GDP earner for farmers)

Neil

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Iain Richards — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 22:17:55 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]I have it on good authority that this is not true for the North of Cumbria. [/quote]

Happy to stnad corrected, but I'm sure it did go, though it took a while

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 22:12:26 GMT

Sarah Keir There is a TB problem in parts of Cumbria but it's relatively recent and nothing to do with the TB introduced with post FMD restocking. They've also found the same strain in some badgers up there.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Sarah Keir — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 22:04:11 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]

That said, all post FMD TB has been removed - becasue there is no wildlife reservoir.

[/quote]

I have it on good authority that this is not true for the North of Cumbria.

Post FMD restocking TB testing in Cumbria is part of the reason I stopped doing farm work.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 21:42:36 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]What are the chances of TB entering the cat food chain via raw diets?[/quote]

Slim if the meat sourced through proper channels. All pet food should be fit for human consumption. The bacteria is not in the flesh. It's deemed safe for people to eat a rare steak etc.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Kate Richardson — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 20:31:53 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

What are the chances of TB entering the cat food chain via raw diets?

I have added it to the long list of bacteria that can be present in these foods.

[/quote]

There are a small number of feline TB cases I believe in indoor cats where the only link is they were all on a raw diet. I’m not anti raw feeding at all but this really made me sit up

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 18:49:09 GMT

[quote user="GrooveJet"]Why is it only the badger that is being persecuted?[/quote]

Badgers pass high levels of the bacteria in their urine. They leave their sets to urinate and contaminate the grass. They will also brazenly climb into low cow troughs, insecure feed sheds etc. They don't respect farm boundaries.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Iain Richards — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 17:32:13 GMT

I can't let this discussion pass without mentioning Andrew Hayward, who was Cumbria DVM in 2001. I can recall several occasions when he went to DEFRA HQ to say DO NOT introduce TB having got rid of FMD. His words went undheard. That said, all post FMD TB has been removed - becasue there is no wildlife reservoir.
I was also at a meeting in 2000 where I requested zoning to stop cattle movements from the contaminated South. I still do not understand why movement is permitted not least from around a break down farm. AM I right that the surrounding farms have 28 to move animals beofre their restrictions are placed?

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Iain Richards — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 14:28:51 GMT

[quote user="GrooveJet"]But in South Africa (where I grew up) there is an issue with lion being infected by buffalo, and more recently a host of other species testing positive. Which has led me to wonder whether there could be a link between domestic farm cats and cattle TB.[/quote]

With TB (and, in truth many diseases) control can only be achieved by controlling the reervoir (not vector it's an important epidemiological difference). For M bovis in UK, the reservoir is cattle and badgers, NZ, possum and cattle, Spain, boar/deer and cattle. All others are spill over hosts - ie incapable of maintianing infection in the population. In SA, buffalo were the reservoir, lions a spill over. Farm cas in the UK are very unlikely to be a source of infection.

(IN fairness, badger as reservoir has not been stricklty proven, but it is balance of probabilities)

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Bob Russell — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 13:11:43 GMT

What are the chances of TB entering the cat food chain via raw diets?

I have added it to the long list of bacteria that can be present in these foods.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Miriam Lodewyks — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 13:06:27 GMT

Neil, I'm just a smally vet, so don't understand the political aspects you mention. But in South Africa (where I grew up) there is an issue with lion being infected by buffalo, and more recently a host of other species testing positive. Which has led me to wonder whether there could be a link between domestic farm cats and cattle TB.

Do you know if there's any sound research to rule that possibility in/out?

Why is it only the badger that is being persecuted?

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 11:56:33 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Cattle do not fly, nor do badgers as far as I am ware so it has spread round the country in cattle on the back of lorries.[/quote]

I can't confirm this, but several rumours of trapped badgers being rescued from the Kerbs area and moved around the country to somewhere safe. That was the problem with the Krebs trial, far to much interference from both sides, a duff piece of science.

You can test till the cows come home, but until you solve the vector you'll get no-where. Wales has culled an incredible amount and the chief vet there understands the disease, it's all political.

Easiest solution, simply take badgers of the protected list. Farmers want and look after clean badgers. Many farmers have sorted out their own vector problem, just no-one talks about that.

Neil

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Jo Dyer — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 11:38:43 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]

When I was new grad vet there was very little TB in cattle in UK I seem to remember 70 farms ??

This was in early 80s

So what happened to allow today's situation with the huge increase in affected farms?

[/quote]

When I graduated in 1986, TB was being spoken of as an almost-extinct disease.

Badgers got full protection in 1992 and TB has been on the rise ever since. Culling is beginning to work though. I am in the West Country, I'm a small animal vet but I know our herds are rife with it. Neil Wheadon is the expert on here.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Julian Earl — Mon, 04 Feb 2019 10:51:47 GMT

We went wrong by not taking it seriously! Yes really! We did not institute movement restrictions from infected areas of the country to clean areas. Cattle do not fly, nor do badgers as far as I am ware so it has spread round the country in cattle on the back of lorries. We have an infectious disease that has been transported around freely. Ridiculous. I suggested this to MAFF back in 2001 when foot and mouth lead to he restrictions and asked why we do not do this for TB? Not possible they said! Surely that is an immediate way to protect areas currently unaffected?

HTH?

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

vetbl.locum — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 14:03:35 GMT

Thanks

So case numbers were increasing pre FMD but since area which had surplus cattle was also TB area then massive spread un detected due lack of premovement testing.

Vector ie badger ? numbers also had increased

Thus the problem we have now.

Would above be fair synopsis ?

Rgds

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Liz Barton — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 13:12:35 GMT

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]Massive lost opportunity when restocking after FMD.[/quote]

I worked in Cumbria. No TB until they all restocked post FMD from herds in affected areas. After disease spread across the country they THEN introduced pre-movement testing. Shutting the door after the horse has bolted and done several laps of the UK.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Emily Rainbow — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 08:44:13 GMT

Not saying it’s something that should return but I seem to remember from lectures that gassing badger sets was outlawed at around the same time.

RE: TB where did we go wrong ?

Alistair Graham-Evans — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 00:38:28 GMT

Massive lost opportunity when restocking after FMD.