Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

vetbl.locum — Sat, 29 Dec 2018 18:54:56 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

..... a massive slice of christmas cake on Christmas eve. Still fine. (And owner had fed it grapes as a treat a few times when much younger before they realised!)

[/quote]

Similarly, saw 8yo Boxer on Boxing day, whose owner had feed several home made mince pies last few days and last few Christmases!

It was ill but with sore neck after fall.

Checked renal bloods parameters only because i wanted to give NSAIDs for neck.

Wondered after how soon after ingestion would changes show if at all.

Kinda thought dog was hardened to mince pies and would cope. Is there evidence for that ?

Rgds

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 28 Dec 2018 12:38:37 GMT

After I posted this, I saw a dog for it's booster that had eaten 3 mince pies 48 hours before. Did bloods to check, renal parameters were ok so left it at that, said to come back in if he was ill.

Yesterday, 16wk old puppy for weigh and worm. Ate a massive slice of christmas cake on Christmas eve. Still fine. (And owner had fed it grapes as a treat a few times when much younger before they realised!)

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Derek Lyon — Thu, 27 Dec 2018 13:19:05 GMT

One of our dogs jumped on the table on boxing day and wolfed down a mince pie. She is only 8kg and I thought what should I do. I had no washing soda crystals so observed only....24 hours later she is 100%

Had decided not to call my old practiced on boxing day!

Happy Xmas everyone.

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 00:24:21 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] fruit or veg before eating myself let alone the dog [/quote]

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Linda Filshie — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 19:58:58 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

This has just popped up on my mobile, so owners reading it might be quite hyper-aware!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-46542542

I have to say, for a recent ingestion I would usually induce emesis and send home charcoal, but wouldn't generally advise IVFT. I thought the comment in the article about the cocker/poodle cross barking for the whole time was quite telling....it's not necessarily a benign intervention for these pets (or staff!) if the benefit is questionable.

[/quote]

Mmm, I wonder how it would go down if said stressy barking dog developed a gdv.

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Rob Davis — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 17:05:28 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[/quote]

"Mickey the Belgian shepherd had to spend three nights at a veterinary hospital earlier this month after munching on a mince pie he took from a plate on the sofa." etc...

I had a call last night from somebody whose young labrador had just eaten half a mince pie. After discussing the options with her, we agreed to do nothing other than monitoring. I am comfortable with that decision. I suspect the vast majority of the many dogs who steal a mince pie this Christmas will not have any contact with a vet and will suffer no ill effects at all. Even if there is a causal link between ingestion of grapes/raisins and renal failure in some cases, I'm not convinced there is any evidence that prolonged IV fluids before any clinical signs are seen will make the slightest bit of difference.

Merry Christmas to all!

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Lucy Fleming — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 11:30:54 GMT

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:21:42 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]His view was that it is not actually grapes per se which are toxic - but something on them - fungus/insectice/herbicide etc etc.[/quote]Which is why I always rinse any ready to eat fruit or veg before eating myself let alone the dog (well I don't have a dog). But then that doesn't explain why, if at all, cooked raisins and currants can cause an issue.

One of my nurses' Dachshund ate a bag full of raisins a little while ago, she got him in pronto and following apomorphine he barfed up a big pile. We did noting else and he was fine.

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Sarah Keir — Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:56:16 GMT

Chocolate covered coffee beans in a springer spaniel is not a good idea!

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

bob lehner — Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:50:40 GMT

I went to a talk on grape poisoning by some eminent American professor and asked him why only some dogs were affected. His view was that it is not actually grapes per se which are toxic - but something on them - fungus/insectice/herbicide etc etc.

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Utlendigur — Fri, 14 Dec 2018 14:20:02 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I agree with many other posters- when I first qualified grape/ raisin toxicity wasn't even a thing! I actually used to chuck grapes to our old dog, and I'm fairly sure he stole a few raisin- containing items![/quote]

Ditto. My Jack Russell back then once ate a bag of chocolate covered raisins with no ill-effect - they did emerge very plump from the other end covered in chocolate fondant. Same JRT also liked black coffee, cough sweets, fishermans friends and bitter spray

Is there any info on the average quantity of raisins needed to cause problems?

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Julie Innes — Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:52:25 GMT

I agree with many other posters- when I first qualified grape/ raisin toxicity wasn't even a thing! I actually used to chuck grapes to our old dog, and I'm fairly sure he stole a few raisin- containing items!

Nowadays, of course, I discuss the risks with owners. We would always induce vomiting, and discuss IVFT. I'm not convinced of the need for IVFT, but I tell owners that it is advised.

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 20:59:31 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]Honestly, in my own dog I wouldn't bother inducing vomiting. Does that make me negligent?[/quote]

I agree. This sort of thing stinks of over-treatment IMO. I will discuss the miniscule risk and offer to induce emesis and half heartedly offer fluids but explain my own dogs have eaten raisins/grapes etc and always been fine.

In terms of EBVM I remain relatively unconvinced of the link and even less convinced that IVFT is going to change the course of disease in any case. WHY would it help? I couldn't sleep straight in bed insisting on treatment.

Had a young vet in recently who was on holiday and her dog had stolen a square of chocolate. We had a chat and she went away without any treatment.

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 23:50:08 GMT

From a practical point of view, I find that a fair percentage of those just-in-case, happy and well IVFT dogs have, by the next day, yanked off their buster collar for the 10th time and chewed through their 4th or 5th T connector, or are yapping, spinning and tangling their drip line constantly and not getting the fluid rate you wanted anyway. I interpret this as a sincere request by the patient to go home, and grant it.

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

bob lehner — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 21:32:22 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Liz w"]Funnily enough, on the Archers yesterday, they said fluids for 24 hours. [/quote]

Good enough for me, now that's my kind of CPD!

Niall

[/quote]

Would have thought it would have been on a Currant Affairs programme....?

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Niall Taylor — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 17:42:24 GMT

[quote user="Liz w"]Funnily enough, on the Archers yesterday, they said fluids for 24 hours. [/quote]

Good enough for me, now that's my kind of CPD!

Niall

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Rob Davis — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:57:42 GMT

Honestly, in my own dog I wouldn't bother inducing vomiting. Does that make me negligent?

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Richard Carter — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 13:45:40 GMT

it is renal failure if they get it - urine sample SG, blood and protein?

Tend to be fairly soft on the benefits of giving i/v fluids over 1 or two days to a healthy dog that could drink that amount in one sitting so i tend to - apomorphine if known and acute (less than a couple of hours), advise lots fluid intake (milk, chicken stock, water down tin of dog food), resee if any sign unwell - no urine, v+, of food, poss urine tests/ bloods 2-3 days later discussed but not enforced.

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Wren — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 12:33:13 GMT

[quote user="Liz w"]

Funnily enough, on the Archers yesterday, they said fluids for 24 hours.

[/quote]

Apomorphine, activated charcoal, fluids and bloods after 24hrs. And don't sell out and go to work for a mega-practice....

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 10:48:23 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]Am I missing something? What's wrong with dogs eating pork?[/quote]Depends on how much pork or any other addition to normal diet, even chicken. I've seen several dogs with acute pancreatitis from injudicious ingestion. One of my nurses has a Cocker which if is fed even a small amount of chicken has a bout.

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 10:27:50 GMT

There's a bit buried deep in the paper I referenced to

Initiating fluid diuresis should be considered, despite the

fact that the benefit of fluid therapy was uncertain in this

study

The question that I have and continue to ask

'Is admitting a dog and putting it on 2 days of fluids on twice maintenance with all the cost implications actually going to make a difference'

A double blind study would be interesting provided you can find enough cases

Neil

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Liz w — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 08:26:48 GMT

Funnily enough, on the Archers yesterday, they said fluids for 24 hours.

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 08:22:45 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]Is ingestion of raisins more or less risky than ingestion of pork?[/quote]

Am I missing something? What's wrong with dogs eating pork?

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Beats — Tue, 11 Dec 2018 22:02:52 GMT

Is ingestion of raisins more or less risky than ingestion of pork?

RE: Length of Treatment for Raisin Toxicity

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 11 Dec 2018 21:30:28 GMT

I must admit, I'm a non believer as well, but this paper is interesting

Acute Renal Failure in Dogs After the Ingestion of Grapes or Raisins: A Retrospective Evaluation of 43 Dogs (1992–2002)

It's open access

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1939-1676.2005.tb02744.x?fbclid=IwAR3-x8jbEvhnhxFQSVP8ht0KjtKWgWOjcYb2JCs2NMOMU8JSlwCr6lU-ok8

Neil