Ethics and consent

RE: Ethics and consent

Silvia Maldonado — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:30:22 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]

Why can't you use the animal's own serum?

[/quote]

I was wondering the same, and you avoid potential risks, from reactions to disease. Is he too aggressive to take some bloods, maybe? unless collecting it will do more harm than good, IMO it is worth collecting his own serum and refrigerating it soon afterwards for this purpose.

RE: Ethics and consent

bob lehner — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:00:09 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"] I think you can actually use cross species blood[/quote]

Then bleed the owner if they love their dog!

[/quote]

Just bleed yourself - that's sure to impress the owners ....

RE: Ethics and consent

KathW — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:49:08 GMT

Why not just collect blood (to harvest the serum) from a donor dog as and when needed? Then informed consent can be obtained at the time on a case by case basis if a donor dog is needed (as Joyce says I would occasionally consider this rather than collecting a sample from a wriggly pug with a melting ulcer). It's presumably not something that tends to be needed very often. Most times I would take blood from the dog with the melting ulcer.

If serum is being used from samples taken for pre op bloods on any day it would presumably have had to be separated and refrigerated soon after collection - more work when the blood may not even be needed. Probably simpler overall just to get informed consent from the owner of a donor dog on the rare occasions that donor serum is needed.

RE: Ethics and consent

Clive Ansell — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:52:29 GMT

I think there needs to be fully informed consent from owners of both donor and recipient patients.

I can't see an ethical issue as long as the above consent is in place, and serum is taken from blood samples that have been taken anyway for diagnostics in other patients. I've always used the animals own serum though.

RE: Ethics and consent

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:38:45 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]Taking a sample is a harm, small, but a harm. It is justified because of the need to gain information to aid diagnosis or treatment.[/quote]

My understanding of the situation was that the samples would have already been used for diagnostics for the benefit of the animal the blood came from. The 'leftovers' as it were, were to be used for the serum drops - so no additional harm comes to the animal that was blood sampled that it wouldn't have had anyway (I agree that otherwise it's causing harm to that animal, albeit small, which is not for its benefit).

Occasionally our external lab have requested that 'leftover' blood from routine samples be used in research, which I would view in a similar light.

RE: Ethics and consent

Rob Loxley — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:37:13 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]Why can't you use the animal's own serum?[/quote]

Wriggly pug with a delicate melting corneal ulcer - not always the best candidate for restraining for jugular bloods?

Another solution to buy a bag of FFP from PetBloodbank and use this, albeit it might not be quite as effective https://iovs.arvojournals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2124896

RE: Ethics and consent

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 22:39:22 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"] I think you can actually use cross species blood[/quote]

Then bleed the owner if they love their dog!

RE: Ethics and consent

Joyce Whitehead — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 22:33:58 GMT

I have occasionally used another animal’s serum, for instance in a very wriggly pug with a nasty ulcer that was really hard to hold still to get blood. I believe I used my own dog so or a staff dog so permission was easy to obtain. I think you can actually use cross species blood, and a horse sample is much bigger. Happy to be corrected on this, I’ve not done it but feel sure I’ve heard it somewhere.

RE: Ethics and consent

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:10:48 GMT

I agree with Iain. What about contagious disease risk etc? Bleed the own animal. The 'risk' of occluding a jugular vein - poppycock. You'd NEVER not take bloods, if indicated, because of that. Behave.

Don't even start on the idea of unnecessary pre op bloods.........

RE: Ethics and consent

Iain Richards — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:08:12 GMT

Why can't you use the animal's own serum?

There would be an ethics issue. Taking a sample is a harm, small, but a harm. It is justified because of the need to gain information to aid diagnosis or treatment. It can be justified to take for another animal's benefit, unless consent is gained.

RE: Ethics and consent

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 18:07:13 GMT

I think you should obtain consent (even if we do view it as a formality)

I don't think there is a problem with the ethics - if the animal is having the sample taken anyway. I suppose a small issue being if it encourages you to take a larger sample than you might otherwise, though I can't see that really affecting any but perhaps the smallest patient, or encourages you to "sell" pre-op testing, though again I realistically can't see it having a significant impact. There is certainly a reduction in risk to the patient receiving the serum if they don't have to have their jugular veins occluded and their IOP raised....

RE: Ethics and consent

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:58:32 GMT

I'm planning something similar. First port on art 27 of RCVS. You need consent for this imo.

RE: Ethics and consent

ell — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:56:48 GMT

I think probably would be best with consent from the owners of the pets.One reason being that surely you would have to inform the owner of the dog receiving the serum that it had come from another animal and then they could easily discuss this with friends etc, leading to a possibility of an owner whose animal had a blood test wondering if their animals serum had been used without permission.