Urgent advice on ear cropping!

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Chris Milligan — Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:48:53 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Forget about trying to get anywhere with the legality/welfare of importing ..pointless. [/quote]

This. sadly the damage is done, you just have to manage welfare now.

We have this problem a lot in Canada; cropping is banned in BC but plenty of kindly breeder types take their dogs to the States to get their ears mutilated then come back. There's nothing we can do. The best you can do I suspect is to establish if the owner was involved and has any other dogs, then the RSPCA is your friend. hopefully. If the owner's not following your recommendation you can always suggest they go elsewhere but that doesn't help the dog of course.

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Sarah Keir — Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:36:34 GMT

I only noticed a few days ago that on the wall in the reception is a wall decal sticker with what appears to be a great dane with cropped ears!!!

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Bob Russell — Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:14:08 GMT

I would consider the future of any client that point blank refused to follow a reasonable course of treatment.

After careful consideration as to whether I am being reasonable and they are being unreasonable then I may well suggest they leave the practice.

This sounds a bit arrogant but in reality do we want to treat patients when a relationship with the owner has completely broken down and we are at complete odds with them?

A breeder that regularly took litters for docking at a practice that docked tails would be offered the suggestion that they may be happier remaining with the other practice!

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 19 Sep 2018 09:35:56 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]These dogs are not cheap and most people buying them will have money. [/quote]I was challenging David and talking more about the clients who rock up at the RSPCA. They find the money to buy the dog but then can't afford to pay, or see the value of paying, for it's care - same as they buy a car but don't tax or insure it but they can find the money for an iPhone, plasma TV, scratch cards, booze, fags etc etc.

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]The issue here is a lack of education. The dog looks "better" in their eyes but once you start challenging their believes in a civilised manner their opinion may change. [/quote]I have been around a lot longer than you Dino and proven many times that leopards can't change their spots.

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]I always ask them if ear cropping made their dog feel better in any way and how would they feel if I chopped their ears and gave them a tits job just because I think they need it. [/quote]So that is not confrontational?

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Judith Archbold — Wed, 19 Sep 2018 09:25:53 GMT

Thanks for everyone’s thoughts and comments. I know you all well enough now to have predicted what each of you thinks of this situation :)

I‘m standing my ground on this one. I don’t want this man as a client and I don‘t want this dog in my waiting room ... advertising that I condone ear cropping or even suggesting that I performed the procedure myself.

I shall continue my battle to close the loop hole in the law that allows these mutilated puppies to be brought in from Europe.

Here endeth my thoughts on the matter.

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 19 Sep 2018 09:18:16 GMT

I agree with Michael and David on this. What's done is done and sending the client away does not change anything for the dog. What will happen next is that they will go to some of the dodgy clinics where no questions are asked and the quality of care is poor. I know of at least two practices, legal, owned by non vets who welcome all the cropped, brachys, imported, pit bulls, etc and the standard of their work is absolutely shocking. One of them is even on facebook all the time with their caesarians, surgical inseminations, etc.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]most likely to be the sort of idiot who gets this type of pet because they haven't thought through the consequences financial or otherwise; think they're well 'ard and the dog reflects their image of themselves.[/quote]

Quite a misunderstanding of the phenomenon. These dogs are not cheap and most people buying them will have money. That dog, once is with their owner, will cost as much as a cockerpoo, german sheppard, etc, you name it. The issue here is a lack of education. The dog looks "better" in their eyes but once you start challenging their believes in a civilised manner their opinion may change. I always ask them if ear cropping made their dog feel better in any way and how would they feel if I chopped their ears and gave them a tits job just because I think they need it.

Every time we get confrontational with those people they will leave and the chance to educate them is lost. They may be uneducated but not completely stupid, of course they will be defensive and run off to whoever takes them in.

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:55:43 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Yes and no. It's not the dog's fault someone's done this to its ears. Lets not deprive it of veterinary care altogether, or start calling out other vets who would be prepared to treat the dog, just like any other. Falling out with the owner (who bought the dog and we don't think did this) is unlikely to do anything positive for the dog's welfare.[/quote]

Gillian has answered that.

[quote user="David Mills"]Yep we see a few. Just have to do right by the dog really, quite simple. [/quote]Yes but...assuming you still work for the RSPCA, you are the thin end of the wedge and the buck stops with you. Almost by default the clients who darken your doors with this sort of issue are there because they are thick. Because they are thick they are unemployed/poorly paid/cant afford/don't want to pay private vets fees; are most likely to be the sort of idiot who gets this type of pet because they haven't thought through the consequences financial or otherwise; think they're well 'ard and the dog reflects their image of themselves. But then what is 'the right thing'? Surely it is to do what the OP wanted: remove the dressings and report the owner to yourself if they won't comply.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]What if the owner doesn't allow you to treat the dog though? (ie remove the dressings to ensure it is actually ok). The OP didn't refuse to treat...they refused to treat on the owners terms.[/quote]Exactly.

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 19 Sep 2018 07:29:07 GMT

What if the owner doesn't allow you to treat the dog though? (ie remove the dressings to ensure it is actually ok). The OP didn't refuse to treat...they refused to treat on the owners terms.

Surely the only way to get these owners and breeders to realise this is unacceptable is for the whole vet world to make it clear that they won't just turn a blind eye? If owners had a much harder time accessing aftercare, it would put one more barrier in their way and might eventually lead to it stopping...no?

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

David Mills — Wed, 19 Sep 2018 00:15:55 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Well done Judith. If he happened to darken my doors I would send him on his way. Maybe there is someone local who is prepared to compromise his/her principals for a few pieces of silver.[/quote]

Yes and no. It's not the dog's fault someone's done this to its ears. Lets not deprive it of veterinary care altogether, or start calling out other vets who would be prepared to treat the dog, just like any other. Falling out with the owner (who bought the dog and we don't think did this) is unlikely to do anything positive for the dog's welfare.

[I'm in no way condoning what's been done to this dog, but there is no way of turning back the clock]

[/quote]

Yep we see a few. Just have to do right by the dog really, quite simple.

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 18 Sep 2018 23:32:38 GMT

[I'm in no way condoning what's been done to this dog, but there is no way of turning back the clock]

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

janine redman — Tue, 18 Sep 2018 22:24:37 GMT

Couldn’t resist looking at the website . There must be something we could do to discourage blatant advertising of mutilated dogs that can be imported into the Uk ?

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 17:32:25 GMT

Good for you. Sleep soundly.

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Bob Russell — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 14:29:27 GMT

Not me though!

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 14:15:07 GMT

Well done Judith. If he happened to darken my doors I would send him on his way. Maybe there is someone local who is prepared to compromise his/her principals for a few pieces of silver.

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 14:07:38 GMT

[quote user="Judith Archbold"]

Update:

I rang the owner of the Doberman puppy this morning. I politely relayed my thoughts and the advice given to me by the RCVS and the RSPCA and the general vibe of this forum.

I said I was happy to complete the puppy’s vaccination course ( yes at 17 weeks he still wasn’t vaccinated fully) but requested on ethical grounds the owner let me remove the ear bandages and treat as required.

He then went into rant mode about how I’m an idiot because he doesn’t want a Doberman with floppy ears and they are ” supposed” to look like they have pointy ears. Apparently “ all Doberman rescue centres” agree with him and all the veterinary world is wrong in our opinion of our banning cosmetic mutilation of dogs.

As you can’t reason with “ stupid” I advised him after the final vaccination he would no longer be a client of my practice as the presence of the puppy in my waiting room implies to other clients that I condone ear cropping or worse still I did it!

Sorry for whichever one of my local colleagues he now becomes the client / problem of but I feel justified in standing by my ethics.

[/quote]

Good for you! I can't stand it when people talk about docked or cropped dogs being how they are "supposed" to look as though it was some form of natural selection...

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Judith Archbold — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 14:05:00 GMT

Update:

I rang the owner of the Doberman puppy this morning. I politely relayed my thoughts and the advice given to me by the RCVS and the RSPCA and the general vibe of this forum.

Sorry for whichever one of my local colleagues he now becomes the client / problem of but I feel justified in standing by my ethics.

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Bob Russell — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 12:41:31 GMT

Recently I have come across several references to 'licensed veterinarian'. This site is one of them. Am I missing something or a qualification?

This is just one more low that puppy dealers seem to drop to!

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 00:17:05 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]But by keeping all that stuff on the dog's head they are doing something likely to cause unnecessary suffering. That's an offence.[/quote]

Well not really, it's a dressing, at this stage it's helping the dog.

[/quote]

It's been there 9 weeks and it has to stay undisturbed until Christmas?? It's helping the dog? Oh. Or ..... was that irony?

Anyway, thanks for [quote user="Dinu Catilina"]http://see-dead-people.blogspot.com/p/instructions-on-how-to-see-dead-people.html[/quote] Jolly useful.

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 23:36:18 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]But by keeping all that stuff on the dog's head they are doing something likely to cause unnecessary suffering. That's an offence.[/quote]

Well not really, it's a dressing, at this stage it's helping the dog.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Still, Herr Dobermann says "The breed standard is cropped and docked – this is how the Dobermann should look". I can just see him now, frothing and ranting, can't you?[/quote]

I can't . And I followed every step described here :

http://see-dead-people.blogspot.com/p/instructions-on-how-to-see-dead-people.html

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 22:32:00 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]Unfortunately they did nothing illegal.[/quote]

But by keeping all that stuff on the dog's head they are doing something likely to cause unnecessary suffering. That's an offence.

Still, Herr Dobermann says "The breed standard is cropped and docked – this is how the Dobermann should look". I can just see him now, frothing and ranting, can't you?

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 22:18:06 GMT

Unfortunately they did nothing illegal. In Serbia it is legal to crop ears and there is no law against importing ear cropped animals. As long as the passport and microchip check then the owner is all legal.

Hopefully this will fade out soon. Most countries in EU will not allow cropped dogs to be shown, only 3 are left now and from next year none.

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 19:40:09 GMT

They don't appear to be the only ones. European Dobermans UK have a facebook page (I needed something to occupy me while the child refused to sleep...) and crop ears to order. Individual puppies are advertised as either cropped or not depending on what prospective owners choose. Not sure if this is strictly illegal though since the surgery takes place abroad but the decision to do so is clearly being made by UK company/purchasers... Definitely immoral and there are various references to prosecutions of associates for animal welfare offences :/

I've got a meeting with various RSPCA folk next week and will see if they have any scope to pursue this.

Marie

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 18:33:05 GMT

Surely the fact that they call themselves a UK organisation advertising something illegal is illegal or at the very least, open to challenge?

How bonkers not to change/check under a dressing for months anyway.

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Niall Taylor — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 17:18:29 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"]A quick google came up with this "lovely" company: http://ukdobermans.co.uk/home[/quote]

What a disgusting organisation.

Niall

RE: Urgent advice on ear cropping!

Judith Archbold — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 17:18:18 GMT

I’ve rung the RSPCA for their opinion on the matter. They said it’s up to me what I do about the ears from now on. He hasn’t broken the law by importing the puppy etc etc.

But I also gave them the details of the ukdobermans website that advertises cropped digs which they were interested in.