The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Julie Innes — Thu, 06 Dec 2018 11:07:07 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"] People will always be inclined to 'rescue' puppies from these evil people.[/quote]

Unfortunately true. But I would like people to look at the type of people they are giving their money to, and think about what their money is funding. So the more news stories about "evil drug dealing puppy farmers" the better, as far as I'm concerned!

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Dec 2018 10:13:35 GMT

These rings are part of organised crime and it is going to be likely that the same people may well be involved in other criminal activities.

The money laundering almost goes without saying!

Not at all sure these changes will affect those deeply involved in the puppy trade. People will always be inclined to 'rescue' puppies from these evil people.

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 06 Dec 2018 09:45:49 GMT

Well, maybe common in Scotland! But they are all the same group, one of them went to jail a few years back for dealing drugs, another one was found with drugs hidden in a dog food pallet, another one was raided by RSPCA and found with anaesthetics and ear cropping tools at home. Sad really :(

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Julie Innes — Thu, 06 Dec 2018 08:45:25 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"] But this is not a common thing ...[/quote]

Hmm, possibly more common than you think! (This incident happened just down the road from us, and doesn't surprise me in the slightest)

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 05 Dec 2018 22:46:24 GMT

Absolutely! Some of these dogs costs 3000-4000 pounds as a puppy and the stud fees are just as bad. There is no pet homes for them either so the only explanation is drug money. But this is not a common thing ...

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Peter Faulkner — Wed, 05 Dec 2018 20:56:13 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Anyone get the feeling this is as much aimed at reducing the grey or black economy than animal welfare?

Puppy dealers getting away with too much tax evasion?

[/quote]

Absolutely, this is not a welfare act but a breeding regulation act. Nothing wrong with the idea but in its current format I'm afraid it does support dog farming and importing puppies. The marked is there, people want puppies, if small breeders don't produce them (and many will stop) someone will step in to fill the hole.

[/quote]

Could dog breeding be used to facilitate money laundering? It seems to attract some dodgy characters. Might be wise to take precautions when doing licensing visits!

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3579946/glasgow-shooting-rutherglen-vets-scott-bennett-drug-dealer-dog-breeder/

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 20:39:14 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Anyone get the feeling this is as much aimed at reducing the grey or black economy than animal welfare?

Puppy dealers getting away with too much tax evasion?

[/quote]

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Rob Loxley — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 20:35:25 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]My understanding of the animal welfare act 2018 is that anyone that sells a puppy will need to be registered[/quote]

From the legislation "Business test 1. The circumstances which a local authority must take into account in determining whether an activity is being carried on in the course of a business for the purposes of this Schedule include, for example, whether the operator— (a) makes any sale by, or otherwise carries on, the activity with a view to making a profit."
You could argue that selling the odd puppy is not with a view to making a profit on the activity, merely to cover the costs incurred?

Likewise from the supporting explanatory memorandum:
"The licensing threshold for dog breeders will be reduced to three or more litters per year to ensure that anyone breeding dogs commercially, including backyard breeders, requires a licence."
So what does 'breeding dogs commercially' mean to mean?

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Bob Russell — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 16:50:32 GMT

Anyone get the feeling this is as much aimed at reducing the grey or black economy than animal welfare?

Puppy dealers getting away with too much tax evasion?

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Andrew Mellor — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 16:33:39 GMT

My understanding of the animal welfare act 2018 is that anyone that sells a puppy will need to be registered unless they fulfil the exceptions- police / guide dogs etc, no puppy can be removed from the bitch before 8 weeks of age unless in an emergency, so if one pup of a letter is under the weather the whole litter and bitch need to come to the vets or a home visit arranged,

bitch can not be transported after 54 days apart from going to the vet.

it needs some careful reading as does the microchipping legislation if you are not totally up to speed with this,

the home boarding/ kennelling etc will be interesting , people home boarding will need to be able to provide a separate room for each dog or written consent from all parties that they are happy for dogs to mix.

I have been asked by local authority to now go and inspect premises/ paperwork etc for them as the current legislation allows a licensing officer to do this, now a vet has to be present, initially he thought about 30 premises a year, since I have read the legislation I know it is going to be many more than that, I have more than 30 clients that breed dogs, probably 15 or so home boarders, a dozen kennels and same cattery and that is just the ones I deal with, there are 7 other practices in the immediate area.

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Rob Loxley — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 19:10:37 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]I've seen a copy of the guidelines to the new legislations.[/quote]

Can you post a link to this; I've read all the background I could find online but the only thing about £1k I found was the tax-free allowance for hobbies?

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

David Mills — Sat, 01 Sep 2018 20:26:28 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

I've seen a copy of the guidelines to the new legislations. Dinu is right - if you make over £1000 on the sale of puppies you will be taxed on it and definitely need to be licensed. You only don't need a license if you can prove you're going to keep all the puppies and never sell them.

[/quote]

It sounds great, but enforcement I suspect will be inconsistent and difficult. And if left to local councils, either incompetent or non existent.

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Utlendigur — Sat, 01 Sep 2018 20:13:55 GMT

According to the legislation the breeder is considered the first keeper (2b in relation to a new-born puppy, the owner of the bitch which gave birth to it) . It also says that ownership of a dog cannot be transferred unless the dog is microchipped. (8 (2) From 6 April 2016 no keeper may transfer a dog to a new keeper until it has been microchipped). Given that the legislation requires the keeper's details to be recorded on a database, that would tend to imply the first keeper ie breeder would also have to comply before they could transfer the ownership.

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Julie Innes — Fri, 31 Aug 2018 14:58:59 GMT

Regarding the microchipping of puppies- it seems to me that the breeder should microchip the pups, and some of my breeders do the chipping themselves. Nowhere does it say they legally need to register the pups in their own name . I see lots of pups coming with a chip which the new owner registers and I thought that was ok?? Surely the chip could still be traced- to register a chip you need a vet code, which insures that the number on the chip matches the chips allocated to the person authorised to implant them. So each microchip will carry that info, and you can then check your notes.

This worked for me a few months ago- the police had found a dog with an unregistered chip, but which had been implanted by us. I was able to go through the records and find the chip no and saw it had been implanted into a dog belonging to one of our rescue charities, who get the new owners to register the chip to avoid extra fees. Called the charity and they knew exactly who the dog had gone to from their records, and they got in touch with the owner (who incidentally by then had had the dog back home for 3 days- the police hadn't contacted me until after the weekend!) But shows the system works, whether the breeder is the first registered owner or not- the vet or whoever implanted the chip will be able to say who paid for it

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 31 Aug 2018 09:37:32 GMT

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 08:29:32 GMT

Sorry might be a language barrier here, my bad. What I meant was that no one can prove why someone breeds, if it is for profit or not. But regardless why taxes should be paid if they do make a significant profit.

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Rob Loxley — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 08:23:49 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]The purpose of breeding is difficult to prove.[/quote] I'm not sure the 'purpose of breeding' comes into it, rather whether it for profit or 3 or more litters per year?

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 00:27:28 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]I guess if you sell JRTs for £100 you probably aren't envisaging making much money, but designer hybrids for £1k a pop is harder to argue you aren't aiming to make money?[/quote]

It's actually easy to argue. The breeder may say state that the reason to breed is to have a new puppy for agility/show/ etc. The rest of the litter is sold as not needed. The purpose of breeding is difficult to prove.

[quote user="robloxley"]When the law will say something else?[/quote]

Yes. Take for example speed limits. Some councils may decide that in some areas the national speed limit is not sufficiently restrictive.

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Rob Loxley — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 23:34:58 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="robloxley"]Mine was a serious question - where does your answer come from; it's certainly not in the forthcoming legislation? Is there a difference - as far as the UK Law goes in determining whether it is a Business - between selling puppies for any consideration (say 'to cover costs incurred'), overall making a profit on the whole enterprise, or 'breeding for commercial gain'?[/quote]

Sorry if I misunderstood something? The new legislation says that in breeding dogs even hobby breeding is taxable if the breeder has over 1000 pounds in profit/year. This however is not a new law, any hobby activity that makes someone over 1000 pounds profit in a year should be declared and taxable. Again, please correct me if I am wrong.

[/quote]

I know if your hobby does not produce income above £1,000, it can be ignored for tax purposes, but it may still be a business, and in the case of dog breeding/selling the forthcoming legislation would suggest you need licensing? I am looking at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/486/pdfs/uksi_20180486_en.pdf "Business test 1. The circumstances which a local authority must take into account in determining whether an activity is being carried on in the course of a business for the purposes of this Schedule include, for example, whether the operator— (a) makes any sale by, or otherwise carries on, the activity with a view to making a profit or (b) earns any commission or fee from the activity".
I guess if you sell JRTs for £100 you probably aren't envisaging making much money, but designer hybrids for £1k a pop is harder to argue you aren't aiming to make money?

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]What I said though is that some councils might decide that 2 litters or even 1 will require a license. [/quote]

When the law will say something else? One of the points of the new legislation is to make licensing regimes clearer, simpler, more consistent with their standards and with each other

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 22:29:58 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]The local council should be enforcing the law. The new law says more than 3 litters in 12 months (it is currently 5 litters). Also sale of puppies under 8 weeks becomes illegal.[/quote]

Absolutely. What I said though is that some councils might decide that 2 litters or even 1 will require a license.

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Rob Loxley — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 20:37:05 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="robloxley"] Specifically when does selling one litter of puppies become running a business for profit[/quote]

When the breeder has more than 1000 pounds profit/ year they should declare the income and pay taxes.

[/quote]

Mine was a serious question - where does your answer come from; it's certainly not in the forthcoming legislation? Is there a difference - as far as the UK Law goes in determining whether it is a Business - between selling puppies for any consideration (say 'to cover costs incurred'), overall making a profit on the whole enterprise, or 'breeding for commercial gain'?
[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]My understanding is that locals councils will have different requirements. Most will want licensing for having more than 3 litters in 12 months but some will want licensing for anything as 1 litter[/quote]

The local council should be enforcing the law. The new law says more than 3 litters in 12 months (it is currently 5 litters). Also sale of puppies under 8 weeks becomes illegal.

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 19:56:11 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"] Specifically when does selling one litter of puppies become running a business for profit[/quote]

When the breeder has more than 1000 pounds profit/ year they should declare the income and pay taxes

[quote user="robloxley"]when does ... you need to be licensed? [/quote]

My understanding is that locals councils will have different requirements. Most will want licensing for having more than 3 litters in 12 months but some will want licensing for anything as 1 litter. Please correct me if I'm wrong

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 17:59:05 GMT

[quote user="Lesley Strong"]

The majority of puppies we see aren't chipped anyway even if more than 8 weeks old. Especially certain breeds like staffs. New owners all been clueless as to why compulsory chipping came in when advised that it is the breeder responsibility to do pups before that go to new homes

[/quote]I wouldn't say it was the majority but certainly quite a number. It flags up dodgy breeder/puppy farm/dealer/clueless home 'breeder' and is usually only one of a catalogue of other issues that come to light especially when they found them on Gumtree of similar.

And when you've got dodgy vets who are also involved, even if they are chipping them, there is little hope!

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Lesley Strong — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:59:03 GMT

RE: The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Rob Loxley — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 15:00:26 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]Surely the best source of information for these people is the local authority or APHA/DEFRA[/quote]

I have searched the Defra website before posting here; the only official documentation I could find was the pdf of the new law; our local authority website has no mention of the forthcoming legislation changes. Specifically when does selling one litter of puppies become running a business for profit and you need to be licensed?
I do feel as vets we should have some handle on the primary legislation that is relevant to us, and be able to answer day-to-day queries.

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]I wasn't aware that if a breeder brings in a litter of puppies with the new owners names that you have to register the microchips under the breeders name[/quote]

The Microchipping of Dogs (England) Regulations 2015 "Regulation 3 imposes a duty on every keeper of a dog to have their dog microchipped and to record information on a database. In accordance with the definition of a keeper in these Regulations, a breeder is considered the first keeper of a puppy if the breeder owns the bitch that gave birth to the puppy. Accordingly the breeder is under a duty to have such a puppy microchipped in accordance with Regulation 3"

so, yes, the breeder should be the first registered keeper, the idea of this was about traceability IIRC.

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]if you are a locum and the practice does register to new owners without involving the breeder, what do you do as a locum?[/quote]

It's statutory legislation, I'm not sure you can not-comply and say 'I was told to do it this way'?

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]Some databases will not charge for the first transfer of ownership from the breeder to owner[/quote]

Backhome moved from petlog to pettrac for this very reason; pettrac allow very quick online registation by the vets to the breeder, and the breeder can log into their account and transfer FOC the ownership/keepership details to the purchaser of the puppy, it all works well and easily IME