Farm animal ethics

RE: Farm animal ethics

Julian Earl — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 22:40:35 GMT

|Yes Arlo, I think that a number of poster here might enjoy the Welfare Certificate. It is just this sort of discussion which crops up at the Modular meetings when studying for the exam. I found it an extremelyworthwhile exercise studying for and taking the exam . I have commented that apart from me using analgesia and non-steroidals on virtually every case, what the Certificate mad me do more than anything else was to ask WHY I am doing something? A prime example was the embryo transfer work that the practice used to do a huge amount of years ago. Nothing to help the individual animal just done purely for human's benefit. So I stopped.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 28 Aug 2018 17:01:40 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Which leads me in the direction of thinking shearing is not in itself a welfare issue, unless the shearers are inflicting pain. [/quote]

On the other hand, not shearing is also a welfare issue, as generations of selection have led to loss of the natural shedding of wool in many breeds - so if you don't shear them you get build up of years of fleece (see Shrek the sheep who evaded many a muster in the Southern Alps, or alternatively those horrible stories about neglected matted "oodle" breeds whose feet fall off once they are finally shaved...)

RE: Farm animal ethics

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 28 Aug 2018 16:37:19 GMT

The benefits of shearing absolutely outweigh the stress if it is done well.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Therefore, is not the sheep's reaction simply a reflex?[/quote]

That depends on prior experience. Fear is learned and amplified by previous similar events by classical conditioning. Therefore, yes, the first time, fear might be a reflex event to the stressors, but if it was an unpleasant or painful experience then the next time similar things occur, the animal recognises the chain of events leading up to it and will behave accordingly. Therefore a sympathetic shearing experience should mean that the flock will be reasonably relaxed next year, but an adverse experience is likely to mean they will be very flighty to catch next time the moment they get wind of the clippers/van/different humans and could develop what we might term a phobia. Phobias don't trouble humans much in sheep, which can be grabbed by the leg and brought down.

It could be argued therefore that the OP was concerned that there was unacceptable or unnecessary stress, due to the spectacle, transport and sweltering heat rather than suffering per se as actual physical abuse would be very unlikely to occur in such a public setting.

Again, unless it's a horse: e.g. Oliver Townsend whipping his exhausted animals at Badminton...

RE: Farm animal ethics

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 28 Aug 2018 15:54:43 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]One question in the area of suffering etc., is at what point do we fret about stress as opposed to actual suffering? Stress is a normal reaction and largely unavoidable but suffering should be avoided if possible.

These discussions should distinguish which is the main concern? At shows is a shearing demonstration stressful or causing suffering? I suggest the former. Not desirable but less of an imperative than suffering. [/quote]

Julian Earl I was just thinking something similar. The other problem I have is that stress is something which we might say is 'suffered' by humans, but I wonder if that is the case in animals.

In other words, if I was to be grabbed by a hairdresser as I walked down the street, then brought to the floor and shaved to within an inch of my life, I have the ability to rationalise the situation, to feel fear that this is some madman who is about to kill me, etc etc.

A sheep, on the other hand, has no ability to rationalise, no understanding of death, therefore no ability to fear in the way we fear something or which would cause us to suffer.

Therefore, is not the sheep's reaction simply a reflex?

By contrast, would it be reasonable to assume that when it comes to pain, very much the same mechanisms are at work in humans and animals? So whilst a sheep might not be able to sit there thinking 'bloody hell, how long is this going to hurt for?', it likely feels pain as acutely as we do.

Which leads me in the direction of thinking shearing is not in itself a welfare issue, unless the shearers are inflicting pain.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 28 Aug 2018 15:44:23 GMT

This is what I said earlier but some people didn't get. Companion animals get their every need catered for, sometimes to excess whilst farm animals and some horses are often treated very badly.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 28 Aug 2018 14:39:05 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I wonder whether animals that are comparatively silent, like sheep, get worse, and therefore less"humane" treatment, than those that scream?[/quote]

Most definitely. Prey animals rarely vocalise under duress, presumably an evolutionary advantage, so as not to draw attention to themselves. We have many double standards: It is considered acceptable to publicly kick and whip horses, for example. Sure, we have limits, but can you imagine any acceptable public whipping of dogs in a modern setting?

RE: Farm animal ethics

Iain Richards — Tue, 28 Aug 2018 11:41:23 GMT

That's a good point Julian.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Julian Earl — Tue, 28 Aug 2018 11:22:57 GMT

Research in the eighties demonstrated that shearing is the most stressful thing we do to sheep. Second was meeting a strange dog, as opposed to the usual fsheep dog that they are familiar with.

One question in the area of suffering etc., is at what point do we fret about stress as opposed to actual suffering? Stress is a normal reaction and largely unavoidable but suffering should be avoided if possible.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Iain Richards — Sat, 25 Aug 2018 13:39:59 GMT

Quite correct Gillian.

I suspect we are more likely to inadvertently eat non-stunned meat that has come via the kosher route and been rejected - the whole the hind quarters of beef.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 22:34:44 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Re meat eating - it's hard to avoid halal meat these days. A lot of it ends up in the non halal food chain.[/quote]

Do you have an objection to eating halal (blessed) meat, or to eating meat from animals that haven't been pre-stunned? It is very important to know there is a difference. (80% of halal meat is pre-stunned).

I have no issue with eating halal meat...it really makes no difference to me. But I really wish meat from animals that haven't been stunned was labelled...I would refuse to buy it.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Christina Smith — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 21:00:59 GMT

Sheep and beef cattle are semi-domesticated therefore any handling will constitute a degree of suffering and presumably a huge surge in adrenaline/cortisol. Handling them should be minimal and effective. Short periods of handling undoubtably distressing for both animal and human. But compare that to the chronic suffering of pets overbred,caged or geriatric. These animals are used to humans and being handled. The worse their chronic condition the more stoical they become. Often their respiratory/joint/skin/ear/eye/brain problems are overlooked by their loving owners. They are never subjected to natural selection, often overfed and obese. I agree we should react to obvious animal cruelty but surely should be spreading a more balanced and honest message.

RE: Farm animal ethics

bob lehner — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 10:01:16 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Do sheep want to be shorn? probably not, do they want to be held in various unnatural positions, probably not, so not all sheep are co-operative are they?[/quote]

I'd skip the 'probably'.

Of course not all farmers/shearers behave like this - but if there is evidence that some are doing so then surely any right thinking person (particularly if an MRCVS) should condemn it outright and not come up with excuses.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 00:24:56 GMT

I just can't watch any videos of animal abuse or cruelty.

Re meat eating - it's hard to avoid halal meat these days. A lot of it ends up in the non halal food chain.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 00:16:58 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]I must admit I can't watch these videos because I know they'll be upsetting. I must be getting soft in my middle age! (born again vegetarian)[/quote]

Disagree! I think it's important that we DO watch these things so we know what is happening and come up with our own view on things rather than let the media/special interest group make up our minds for us. Regarding vegetarianism - buying quality, traceable meat supports animal welfare.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 00:08:57 GMT

I must admit I can't watch these videos because I know they'll be upsetting. I must be getting soft in my middle age! (born again vegetarian)

RE: Farm animal ethics

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 22:56:37 GMT

No, I don't condone standing on their necks or smashing them about the face, let's get that straight.

I was though raised on a large mixed farm, 150 cows, 1500 sheep, the largest enclosed farm in Devon, much of my holiday time was spent dealing with sheep and cattle, so I guess I have an insight into what actually goes on in a farm rather than the fleeting insight that many others get..

As Michael said, anything can be taken out of context. What I dislike intensely is an isolated incident sought out by a welfare organisation and taken to the media with the inference that every farm is doing it, because they aren't.

So where's the fatuous part? (definition, silly and foolish) Do sheep want to be shorn? probably not, do they want to be held in various unnatural positions, probably not, so not all sheep are co-operative are they?

If you want to push your point across as you have by starting this thread, then look at Evelyn, his points are a touch more persuasive.

Neil

RE: Farm animal ethics

bob lehner — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 21:27:14 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]As Michael said, things need to be taken into context. If a shearing gang are shearing 1500 sheep as I helped with for many years, not all the sheep are co-operative. It's backbreaking work, physically demanding and trying to hold a wriggly sheep is very hard especially when armed with a set of clippers in the other hand.[/quote]

So you are saying it's quite OK to beat the sh*t out of them because they are 'not co-operative'? (which presumably will teach the buggers a lesson and make them much more co-operative - ''Thank you Mr Shearer, I understand what you want now and I'll certainly try and behave better.....''

I'm sorry - but yours is the most fatuous comment I've come across in a very long time.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Anthony Todd — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 19:46:43 GMT

I wonder whether animals that are comparatively silent, like sheep, get worse, and therefore less"humane" treatment, than those that scream?

Viz: The Silence of the Lambs.............

RE: Farm animal ethics

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 19:32:17 GMT

i'm very well aware of all that. Also that they are on piecework. I don't think that what the vid showed was "the odd indiscretion".

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Shearers are also in demand, so the odd indiscretion, to be treated with 'never darken my door again' isn't an option really.[/quote]

Like, "you want your sheep shorn, you can effing well put up with us, we'll effing well mistreat them and effing well damage them if we effing well want" ? I know a couple of farmers who would certainly throw them out.

I wonder why the PETA lot decided to film this particular gang? It suggests to me that there was a reputation already.

By the way, remember "Padre Padrone"? There was an interesting method of restraining sheep for shearing there. I wonder if that really is normal practice in Sardinia?

RE: Farm animal ethics

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 17:28:42 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Clearly they were having a bad day, and I wouldn't worry about the effing and blinding, but if I were a flockmaster and I saw a shearing gang behaving like that I'd throw them off the place.[/quote]

As Michael said, things need to be taken into context. If a shearing gang are shearing 1500 sheep as I helped with for many years, not all the sheep are co-operative. It's backbreaking work, physically demanding and trying to hold a wriggly sheep is very hard especially when armed with a set of clippers in the other hand. Shearers are also in demand, so the odd indiscretion, to be treated with 'never darken my door again' isn't an option really.

Neil

RE: Farm animal ethics

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 17:14:35 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Do be wary of single clips shown out of context. I'm sure we've all done things that out of context look mean (crush cage, move cattle with sticks, used a dog catcher).[/quote]

Clearly they were having a bad day, and I wouldn't worry about the effing and blinding, but if I were a flockmaster and I saw a shearing gang behaving like that I'd throw them off the place.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:24:24 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]Unless it's the ones shown on Channel 4 News last night - undercover filming of what was said to be shearing somewhere in the UK.[/quote]

I agree that in the clip the hitting was entirely unnecessary. It's not behaviour I've ever seen and doesn't go on with the clipping demonstrations. A sensible operator knows that calm and genetle handling is far more likely to get you a cooperative patient.

Do be wary of single clips shown out of context. I'm sure we've all done things that out of context look mean (crush cage, move cattle with sticks, used a dog catcher).

RE: Farm animal ethics

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:14:56 GMT

Here it is

I'm not condoning it, but at £1 a fleece how low can we go? Until consumers respect the proper price of things and how much it truly costs. Fabulous if farmers got £5/fleece, but it's a by product these days.

Neil

www.youtube.com/watch

RE: Farm animal ethics

bob lehner — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 09:24:21 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I love watching the shearing. Yes it's firm, but very expert handling.[/quote]

Unless it's the ones shown on Channel 4 News last night - undercover filming of what was said to be shearing somewhere in the UK.

Sickening.

RE: Farm animal ethics

Christina Smith — Fri, 03 Aug 2018 17:47:36 GMT

The wonderful purple spray. Oxygen might be appropriate too if you can expose those anaerobes.