Legality of cannabis

RE: Legality of cannabis

Bob Russell — Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:58:33 GMT

You have my sympathies. Being a parent of teenagers can be a very frightening thing! Trying to protect those hell bent on self-destruction is one of the most depressing things.

Your post actually brings up the real issues!

Most of the 60's, 70's, 80's pot smokers are visualising legalisation of a much more benign 'naughty' drug than the stuff out there on the market.

Legalise some of the really powerful forms and there will be real problems. Legalise the stuff we took an odd drag of in the past and people will look for the stronger stuff.

Even with cigarettes people are seeking out stronger, imported brands that have often by-passed the duty system.

The only answer I see is keeping things illegal and providing far more back up for those in trouble. Nice idea to have a decriminalised and controlled source but even in the Netherlands there are plenty of drug related problems.

RE: Legality of cannabis

An On MRCVS — Tue, 10 Jul 2018 09:10:43 GMT

Hi have posted anonymously as I wanted to share a personal experience about my son . About the age of 15, my son who up till then had been a popular sporty lad ( captain of football and cricket teams at school) for various reasons which are irrelevant here went off the rails big time. He started mixing with a VERY dubious crowd of often older teenagers and began smoking cannabis. What followed was a terrifying few years, when we honestly thought we might lose him.The question here is not about cannabis itself but about the strength of the skunk which is now readily available. He became paranoid , couldn't hardly look at you , heard voices , had panic attacks when his heart actually racing . This is obviously not the same as the sixties 'weed'. He dropped out of school for a year. However largely I think due to the power of prayer he found the strength to turn himself round , went back to sixth form college and has now graduated from university. He is now vehement about skunk that it should not be thought of as safe .I don't know whether regulating it would help or not , just adding my experience for consideration.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Chris Milligan — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 19:04:04 GMT

I work in British Columbia where cannabis is extremely widely used and available. My practice sees about 10 cannabis intoxications a week (!). The general population has found an endless supply of reasons why they need to take it for themselves medicinally and the claims for what it can do are frankly preposterous. People self-prescribe or get a doctor to give it to them claiming they've exhausted all possible opportunities for other medications to treat their chronic pain which is typically poorly defined diseases such as fibromyalgia or difficulty sleeping. This is annoying but not really an issue day to day for me, but the attitude has led to a enormous explosion in people giving it medicinally to their pets.

Ignoring the evidence of benefit for a moment (which is wafer thin where it is available), the products being produced are just well-marketed versions of extremely strong cannabis oil made by your friendly local drug dealer-turned entrepreneur in the face of impending legalisation. No-one knows what they interact with, they're classed as nutriceuticals so aren't subject to legislation. Compounding this is a quasi-religious paranoid argumentative support base that refuses to listen to anyone who has anything other than glowing recommendations about this panacea. To be frank they're a pain in the arse - if there's ever a push in the UK to follow suit politically you can look forward to daily consultation arguments about why phenobarbitone would be a better first-choice drug to treat a dogs seizures before trying who-knows-what cannabis oil.

Rant over :D

RE: Legality of cannabis

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 17:58:00 GMT

[alcohol] [quote user="bob lehner"] Long term use leads to addiction, total dependency and death from liver failure...[/quote]

Not addiction. The other two, yes.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 17:54:01 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]They don't drive dangerously,[/quote]

Do they drive while under the influence of MDMA? You sure they don't? If they do, they are driving dangerously.

[quote user="Jo Dyer"] If it gets people away from binge-drinking alcohol, it would be of enormous net benefit.[/quote]

It's easily available now, and it doesn't get people away from binge-drinking alcohol.

[quote user="Will McMullan"]absolute horror at the outdated, puritanical and ignorant views[/quote]

just what I feel when I read the Grauniad or the Daily Mirror on a kennel floor.

RE: Legality of cannabis

bob lehner — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 13:07:19 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="bob lehner"]However, imagine if it had never existed[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand why it would help to do that, or how it changes anything!

[/quote]

I'm just imagining if it (alcohol) was a newly discovered substance - what the authorities would make of it....

RE: Legality of cannabis

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 12:51:31 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]Indeed - but as EBH says alcohol has been around for thousands of years. [/quote]

As has cannabis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cannabis (recreational use reported by Herodotus in 480BC, but it may have been used as a psychoactive in the pre-Neolithic era, around 10,000 years ago).

[quote user="bob lehner"]However, imagine if it had never existed[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand why it would help to do that, or how it changes anything!

RE: Legality of cannabis

bob lehner — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 12:02:35 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Still, having smoked it myself, I really do struggle to understand why it is illegal when booze is not. I would have thought they are more or less on a par, in terms of potential health problems.[/quote]

Indeed - but as EBH says alcohol has been around for thousands of years.

However, imagine if it had never existed and then today suddenly appeared from some pharma lab. It would never get a licence to be on general sale to the public. A substance which in moderation makes you feel happy and relaxed, but take a bit more and you lose all your inhibitions, possibly become violent, fall over, vomit, collapse, go into a coma and maybe die. If you do wake up you have a blinding headache and feel dreadful for days. Long term use leads to addiction, total dependency and death from liver failure... Get a license ? I think not.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Will McMullan — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 11:28:49 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I often ask myself that question, when I see a news story about a young person dying after taking ecstasy.

I mean, ghastly as those stories are, and however much my heart genuinely bleeds for the parents, the percentage of people who die after taking E is, very, very small. You're much more likely to get hurt or die after drinking alcohol.

[/quote]

Personally, I think MDMA is a prime candidate for legalisation. It seems to me that people take it, they feel happy, they dance all night and then they go home to sleep. They don't drive dangerously, punch or rape anyone, or end up clogging up A and E as people who drink excessively can tend to do.

The very few cases associated with death have either been due to water intoxication (naive children thinking they had to drink water to excess to counter the potential dehydration) or to contamination of so-called ecstasy pills. I think it should be licensed, so go through all the testing required of other pharmaceuticals, then legalised so that everyone knows what they are taking and can make an informed decision on any risks. If it gets people away from binge-drinking alcohol, it would be of enormous net benefit.

And as for cannabis - that should be legalised as well, as it is in many other countries. I think there would be a need to limit the THC content though. High THC cannabinoids can be associated with psychotic episodes and symptoms, but there is no real evidence of cannabinoids causing psychotic disease eg schizophrenia, bipolar (the latter is around 90% genetic, which is staggering). A longitudinal study done in Australia over a couple of decades showed that although the increase in cannabis use was almost exponential, there was no increase in the incidence of psychotic disease.

It is thought that cannabis is probably not a gateway drug, but that associating with peers in an illicit drug-taking environment where other drugs are available is a big factor, as are genetics. So legalising it should reduce use of other drugs, not increase it. There are longitudinal studies going on in Colorado where it is legalised but the results are not out yet.

I have lots of references if anyone wants them! This MSc is fascinating.

[/quote]

I've been reading this thread with absolute horror at the outdated, puritanical and ignorant views being voiced, so thank you for bringing some informed sense to the party. If anyone is interested in some more positive and productive views on this kind of thing, this podcast was excellent and most things Hamilton Morris is involved in are very interesting and illuminating.

www.youtube.com/watch

(also available on audio podcast platforms)

RE: Legality of cannabis

Jo Dyer — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 09:27:45 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I often ask myself that question, when I see a news story about a young person dying after taking ecstasy.

[/quote]

I have lots of references if anyone wants them! This MSc is fascinating.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 00:01:23 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]like South Africa, yes some are on methylated spirits and other alcohol as well - one tends to drift to the other and yes I am aware of high unemployment rates and other socio-economic factors but it doesn't help to have a 'can't work/ wont work' subset that isn't going to get any better[/quote]

Does SA have a drug problem or a social problem? Which one came first?

[quote user="Richard Carter"]don't know if you would feel the same if your 18 year old pride and joy basically had a life destroying event because of 'giving it a try'?[/quote]

People don't just die from trying cannabis? And the 18 year old pride and joy may still have a genetic predisposition for schizophrenia.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2826121/

RE: Legality of cannabis

Jill Butterworth — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 22:32:17 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I think it is state of mind of why people start taking drugs in the first place.[/quote]

We humans have a propensity for desiring to alter our state of mind, even if it's it's a cup of coffee in the morning or a relaxing drink at the end of a hard day. Clearly with both alcohol and cannabis, a percentage of users go off the rails.

As an aside, I read Jeremy Archer's Prison Diaries a while ago, and he remarked that an unintended consequence of the introduction Mandatory Drug Testing in jail was to inadvertently create a generation of heroin addicts. The reason is that cannabis remains in the blood stream for perhaps 4 weeks, heroin just 24 hours if you drink plenty of water. Heroin is far more pathogenic on every level, users will sell their granny and end up back in prison, whereas cannabis is relatively benign, with 'chilling out' effect, helpful for both the prisoners to tolerate incarceration and the officers to manage them.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Anthony Todd — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 19:01:40 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I would still probably have sought it out.[/quote]

Not if it was medicinal grade tetrahydrocannabinol, and even better if it was called "tetrahydrorannabinol" [the active ingredient], so nobody makes the connection!

I'm sure it will have some specific medical use sooner or late; itself, or a derivative.

It really is laughable banning pot, yet the government, the health service, ambulance service and police work with the tax provided by alcohol sales.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 18:19:12 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"][quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Take heroin. As a young man, I spent a month in hospital on morphine. If it had been legal when I got out of hospital, I would have gone and bought some.

I think addictive drugs that really do cause immense harm should be illegal and zero tolerance. But things like low strength marijuana and ecstasy should be regulated.[/quote]

Fair point. But shouldn't doctors really make sure they wean you off drugs like that properly? I also don't think that anyone should just be able to out and buy hard core drugs, not sure how I would police that one!

I've never tried heroin, but I hear it is very more-ish[/quote]

Well, we're talking nearly 30 years ago now, and I don't think the doctors realised what a taste I was developing for the stuff, or understood addiction as they do now. A friend of mine recently had to spend a year on morphine after his legs were crushed in an accident; he got weaned off very, very slowly: a grain at a time.

Still, I am not sure that it would have made a blind bit of difference if they had weaned me off. I would still probably have sought it out.

More-ish really doesn't do it justice. It's terrifying. It needs to be zero tolerance illegal, other than for medical use (including treatment for addiction), along with all other opiates and crack.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 17:44:30 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"][quote user="Dinu Catilina"]Easier to blame a drug than genes.[/quote] ?? don't know if you would feel the same if your 18 year old pride and joy basically had a life destroying event because of 'giving it a try'?[/quote]

I often ask myself that question, when I see a news story about a young person dying after taking ecstasy.

So however utterly awful it would be to have that happen to me, I don't think I would stand up and call for prohibition any more than I would for call for prohibition of booze if my child were run over by a drunk driver.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Richard Carter — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 17:33:59 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]Like Holland?[/quote]like South Africa, yes some are on methylated spirits and other alcohol as well - one tends to drift to the other and yes I am aware of high unemployment rates and other socio-economic factors but it doesn't help to have a 'can't work/ wont work' subset that isn't going to get any better

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]Easier to blame a drug than genes.[/quote] ?? don't know if you would feel the same if your 18 year old pride and joy basically had a life destroying event because of 'giving it a try'?

RE: Legality of cannabis

Julie Innes — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 17:12:00 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Take heroin. As a young man, I spent a month in hospital on morphine. If it had been legal when I got out of hospital, I would have gone and bought some.

I think addictive drugs that really do cause immense harm should be illegal and zero tolerance. But things like low strength marijuana and ecstasy should be regulated.

[/quote]

I've never tried heroin, but I hear it is very more-ish

RE: Legality of cannabis

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 16:52:08 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]People who are going to take drugs are not going to be put off because it is illegal, or even expensive. What might work is a more open approach, take away the "naughtiness" and educate better. People who have a worthwhile and busy life are rarely drug takers.[/quote]

Whilst I agree with the broad sentiment, I'm not sure I would go so far as:

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I would legalise all drugs,[/quote]

Take heroin. As a young man, I spent a month in hospital on morphine. If it had been legal when I got out of hospital, I would have gone and bought some.

I think addictive drugs that really do cause immense harm should be illegal and zero tolerance. But things like low strength marijuana and ecstasy should be regulated.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Julie Innes — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 15:20:59 GMT

I would legalise all drugs, then tax them like they do alcohol (to me a far more harmful drug) and tobacco (ditto). half the problems related to drugs involve crime and supply, take away the crime, control the supply, no need for the criminals.

People who are going to take drugs are not going to be put off because it is illegal, or even expensive. What might work is a more open approach, take away the "naughtiness" and educate better. People who have a worthwhile and busy life are rarely drug takers.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 14:55:46 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Hasn't prohibition shown that to be incorrect?[/quote]

People always come up with that. I take it you mean Prohibition the attempt to prohibit alcohol in the USA in the Twenties. Different drug in different cultural position (alcohol use firmly established in Homo sapiens for many millennia), different attitudes at that time, different country, different population mixture, widespread police corruption, and above all gone about in the wrong way: suddenly one day all alcohol is illegal. Whereas in this country cannabis is already illegal – we just need the law enforced. Instead of Chief Constables publicly stating that they don't like the law so they aren't going to do their duty and enforce it.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 13:52:52 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]but those countries where wide spread use is common have a large subset of the population who are basically just vegetables - cannot educate, cannot work, cannot function as an adult with the responsibilities of family care etc that go with being human being.[/quote]

Like Holland?

[quote user="Richard Carter"]So if you don't mind having large numbers of people sitting around smiling at you while sitting on street corners with starving babies, go ahead and legalise.[/quote]

Any evidence that they are no alcoholics? Cause from what I have seen they are either alcoholics or hard drugs users. This sounds more like what is being said on a Sunday morning at church.

[quote user="Richard Carter"]I know of two families with complete schizophrenia set in with both children now well into adult years still needing daily care and attention[/quote]

Easier to blame a drug than genes. Isn't schizophrenia a familial disease?

I don't find excuses, I don't smoke and I never ever entertained the idea of any recreational drug.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Richard Carter — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 13:34:51 GMT

but those countries where wide spread use is common have a large subset of the population who are basically just vegetables - cannot educate, cannot work, cannot function as an adult with the responsibilities of family care etc that go with being human being. So if you don't mind having large numbers of people sitting around smiling at you while sitting on street corners with starving babies, go ahead and legalise.

I know of two families with complete schizophrenia set in with both children now well into adult years still needing daily care and attention. Certainly cannot be left on their own while shopping for instance.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 08:59:16 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]If Chief Constables can more or less dictate that cannabis laws are to be ignored when the stuff is completely illegal, why would they start enforcing regulation laws?[/quote]

Yes, but if the stuff was legalised, then the market would self-regulate to some degree. Buyers (or a decent proportion, anyway, would want the kite mark so they knew what they were buying).

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Zero tolerance on possession and use means near zero demand which means near zero trade.[/quote]

Really?

Hasn't prohibition shown that to be incorrect?

I'm not arguing the case for legalisation for my own benefit, BTW. I have smoked it in the past. Not very much - I was known as 'one-puff-Guthrie' because it knocked me out almost before I'd exhaled, which was never a huge amount of fun. And then there was the time when, in Jamaica for a wedding, mingling with the bride and groom's parents at an evening drinks party on the beach, someone passed me some of the local produce with the firm instruction not to have more than the smallest toke. 'Yeah, yeah, don't worry, I know what I'm doing', said I, before taking 2 or 3 massive draws. Big mistake.

Still, having smoked it myself, I really do struggle to understand why it is illegal when booze is not. I would have thought they are more or less on a par, in terms of potential health problems.

If it is a gateway drug, I suspect that is just because it is prohibited, which drives users to buy it from people who sell other stuff.

Other countries/states which have legalised it have not, to the best of my knowledge, seen a massive increase in the use of other drugs, a breakdown in law and order, a run on their currency or civil war.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Bob Russell — Tue, 03 Jul 2018 12:52:59 GMT

If a product is to be used as a medicine then it should be the Dept of Health that makes the decisions. It should be a physician that makes the prescribing decisions.

A drug used for recreational purposes comes under the remit of the Home Office.

It is nonsensical to link one with the other.

I would favour a general decriminalisation of drugs, together with far more education and support for those users.

Prohibition in the States did nothing except breed a generation of gangsters!

Social pressures should help prevent things getting out of hand. Drink driving has become absolutely unacceptable behaviour as would drug driving.

RE: Legality of cannabis

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 03 Jul 2018 12:37:09 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Sure, skunk has greater health risks (though I wonder if they have been exaggerated), but that would be one of the benefits of legalisation: regulation. [/quote]

That I doubt. If Chief Constables can more or less dictate that cannabis laws are to be ignored when the stuff is completely illegal, why would they start enforcing regulation laws?

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

But don't agree as regards zero-tolerance on personal possession and use.

Honestly, what makes cannabis worse than a can of high strength wife-beater ale?

[/quote]

Zero tolerance on possession and use means near zero demand which means near zero trade. So, less threat to mental health, so less threat to others around; and a whole criminal industry wiped out. And, generally, gradual development culturally from acceptance and approval to general disapproval and condemnation, as with tobacco smoking. And that is the only way, in the end.