Leptospirosis

RE: Leptospirosis

Noweia — Thu, 21 Jun 2018 22:05:30 GMT

If they are concerned would it be possible to type the strain involved and prove it different to the vaccine? We had a distemper case about 5 years ago caused by a vaccine - the referral centre sent a sample off to Europe to identify the strain.

RE: Leptospirosis

janine redman — Thu, 14 Jun 2018 20:54:48 GMT

I left to go on holiday the day after the pup came in and have not been personally dealing with the case. especially as it has been at a referral centre. I will have to wait until I get home now for specifics but hope that it was reported to the vaccine company as symptoms started the day after vaccination .

The receptionist said they were blaming the vaccine and in this case I can see why. Just wondered if anyone has had a vaccine reaction that presented in this way?

In some ways I hope they can confirm Leptospirosis as if unproven then it will strengthen their belief in a vaccine reaction . At least if it was Leptospirosis we can warn our local community and rule out any vaccination link

RE: Leptospirosis

Kate Richardson — Thu, 14 Jun 2018 20:23:58 GMT

[quote user="rhmrcvs"]

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Hi Janine, I would report it as a SAR, owner will then be happy you’re taking her concerns seriously, but I would think too quick for it to be due the vaccine (assume you think activation of the lepto component). I would think more likely incubating illness and vaccination made the immune system take its eye off the ball. But interested in what others think.

[/quote]hi , i don't understand why you would report as sar when you think most likely underlying problem , not a vax problem. Pacifying clients like this leads them to believe the vaccine was the problem. There is no evidence for that. Has tbe referral centre positively diagnosed leptospirosis? If so what does the client not understand about that?

[/quote]

Sorry, I should have made it clearer. I would report as a SAR regardless, not solely to pacify the client. It's not up to me to decide if it is an adverse reaction or not, but am sure the vaccine manufacturers would like to know about it. I do not believe ths to be a direct vaccine reaction, but would suspect it to be an indirect reaction. I hope that is clearer.

RE: Leptospirosis

Bob Russell — Thu, 14 Jun 2018 17:43:21 GMT

The vaccine is inactivated. It cannot cause disease, the bug is dead!!

The side effects seen are due to the adjuvant that is there to 'irritate' the immune system so it reacts enough to trigger antibody production.

RE: Leptospirosis

Richard Carter — Thu, 14 Jun 2018 17:04:01 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]overweight middle aged cat earlier in the week which has over the last couple of years had bouts of cystitis and spraying in the house. Nothing to do with the fact it keeps getting beaten up by the neighbour's cat[/quote]

but the fact it is an overweight blob of cat is surely down to spaying (or the fact it has actually survived into adulthood but that is another argument)

RE: Leptospirosis

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 14 Jun 2018 14:29:36 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="rhmrcvs"]Has tbe referral centre positively diagnosed leptospirosis? If so what does the client not understand about that?[/quote]

[/quote]

Yep, this exactly. The anti vaccine people in particular seem convinced that the vaccine causes lepto. Which of course, is a mild illness anyway, easily cured by a course of antibiotics...

RE: Leptospirosis

Utlendigur — Thu, 14 Jun 2018 12:31:57 GMT

[quote user="rhmrcvs"]Has tbe referral centre positively diagnosed leptospirosis? If so what does the client not understand about that?[/quote]

Because in these anti-vaccine, raw feeding, rimadyl/bravecto/insert any other drug name "kills dogs" times the default position seems to be that any vet treatment, no matter how long ago, is responsible unless proven otherwise - even then some still won't believe otherwise. I saw an overweight middle aged cat earlier in the week which has over the last couple of years had bouts of cystitis and spraying in the house. Nothing to do with the fact it keeps getting beaten up by the neighbour's cat - no, according to the owner it must be that something went wrong with the spay all those years ago

RE: Leptospirosis

rhmrcvs — Thu, 14 Jun 2018 11:30:17 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

RE: Leptospirosis

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 14 Jun 2018 09:13:31 GMT

[quote user="janine redman"]The two cases were in unrelated households but the same arae[/quote]Sorry it read as though it was the same owner, but my sentiments remain the same about them playing the blame game.

Opportunity to scare incentivise the local dog owning population to keep vaccination up to date?

RE: Leptospirosis

janine redman — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 20:58:54 GMT

Having checked the vaccination certificate , the dog had not had any vaccinations against Leptospirosis whilst in SA.

The two cases were in unrelated households but the same arae

RE: Leptospirosis

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 14:06:30 GMT

Assuming the diagnosis of Leptospirosis is confirmed not speculative then its pretty obvious the source is rats or even livestock on the farm if its a working farm. First dog not fully vaccinated, pup not vaccinated before exposure - this is a no-brainer, owner wanting to shift blame from himself for being an idiot!

RE: Leptospirosis

Richard Carter — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 13:29:23 GMT

[quote user="janine redman"]acute onset liver and kidney failure with marked icterus in a small6year old fn crossbred dog. This patient came from South Africa[/quote]

Babesiosis and erhlichia are common in South Africa and carrier states exist so an acute onset jaundiced dog would be investigated for babesia first in RSA but then if no-one made and examined a blood smear, you would just diagnose liver failure.

Regarding the vaccines- it's a global market so the same vaccines used here are used in South Africa so Lepto is a fairly standard annual vacc

RE: Leptospirosis

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 09:32:35 GMT

The vaccine hasn't given the dog lepto, but at this stage I guess we can't rule out a vaccine reaction as no diagnosis yet. Remember that in properly vaccinated dogs 1 in 12 will die within a month of vaccination - don't overplay the significance of this and it doesn't cast any doubt over the safety or efficacy of the vaccine.

We see lepto a couple of times per year, they almost always die.

RE: Leptospirosis

Nicola Cole — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 09:16:34 GMT

Another that hasn’t seen anything more than the very occasional swelling on injection and would suspect this puppy was incubating.

RE: Leptospirosis

Linda Filshie — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 09:07:33 GMT

[quote user="janine redman"]

Last week I saw a new puppy , just over eight weeks old , for its first vaccination. Clinically well on presentation but had been loose on the owners farm for the six days

[/quote]

This is the likely source of infection - I don't know many farms w/o rats.

I have not seen an L4 reaction beyond pain on injection and transient lump formation.

RE: Leptospirosis

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:59:02 GMT

[quote user="janine redman"]

Last week I saw a new puppy , just over eight weeks old , for its first vaccination. Clinically well on presentation but had been loose on the owners farm for the six days it had been in their possession. Just over 36 hours after its first vaccination with DHP and L4 it started vomiting and vomited overnight. I saw it the following day and it was depressed and dehydrated so I ran bloods and it had an elevated urea of 20mmol/l and an ALKP of 800 but was also icteric . It was admitted for ivf and supportive treatment and then I went on holiday so have lost track of the case although I know it has gone to a referral centre diagnosed with probable Leptospirosis.

The distraught owner quite understandably blames the vaccine and I wondered if anyone else has had any severe problems after a primary vaccination? I am going to be paranoid myself about vaccinations after this. It was a gorgeous apparently healthy puppy the day I saw it for vaccinations.

[/quote]

Nobivac L4 is an inactivated vaccine, so I wouldn't have thought it was possible for it to cause leptospirosis.

RE: Leptospirosis

Julie Innes — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:31:08 GMT

I also think that this wee pup was most probably harbouring illness before it was vaccinated. Of course it is easier for the owner to blame the vaccine (and you!) than themselves! As Kate said, I would report it. Has a definitive diagnosis been made? Would be nice to know exactly what did happen.

I insist that people have a pup for at least a week before we vaccinate. Some people grumble, but it is to avoid this situation. I do feel that their immune system may be slightly under par immediately after moving to a new home, and also they may be incubating disease, which could be brought to the fore by challenging the immune system and then they automatically blame the vaccine.

But be good to have a definitive diagnosis to take forward

RE: Leptospirosis

Niall Taylor — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:26:47 GMT

[quote user="janine redman"]This patient came from SouthAfrica about 18 months ago and had only ever had a single L4 vaccination. Advised by a local referral practice as having died of Leptospirosis after 3 days intensive care.[/quote]

First thoughts - it hadn't had the full L4 course and the onset of the clinical lepto was beyond the 12 month duration of immunity anyway. The dog's death would likely have been avoided if L4 vacc had been done properly.

[quote user="janine redman"]The distraught owner quite understandably blames the vaccine...[/quote]

This is a terrible outcome, and I can understand the owners wanting to blame something, anything, other than bad luck but the vaccine is inactivated, there is no way it could have led directly to clinical lepto. The dog must have been exposed to lepto in the field before the course was completed and immunity established.

The only reactions we've had to L4 are local irritation following injection and one haematoma at the injection site which resolved spontaneously. Unfortunately though there is a massive amount of scare mongering and false horror stories around from anti-vaccination groups. it may be this that you owner is picking up on.

Niall

RE: Leptospirosis

Kate Richardson — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 07:58:00 GMT