Numpty horse question number 4

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Wren — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 17:57:22 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Wren what are your thoughts on all the supplements/additives out there? Are ANY of them of value?

My horse (TB gelding 16yo) lives out 24/7 all year. He shares a very hilly field with lots of nettles etc with one other horse (27yo cob mare) and has one daily feed consisting of a chaff with Thunderbrook base mix, hay ad lib in the winter. Am I wasting my money On the base mix?

[/quote]

I think, as with anything, it depends hugely on circumstance. Some soils are low in various trace elements and if the horse is only fed on grass then they may need these supplemented (eg. selenium deficient areas). Some horses have specific needs and may for example require a higher calorie/oil rich additive to enable them to cope with winter (eg old thin TBs with bad teeth). Horses in hard work benefit from electrolytes. Certain supplements can transform hoof quality if you have poor brittle feet that you struggle to keep shoes on. Your average horse probably needs nothing extra. I'd be inclined to feed a vitamin/mineral supplement alongside the chaff in your shoes - a lot of balancers are simply this, packaged up with some added extras (and £££s more!). I'm not familiar enough with the Thunderbrook stuff to know whether the base mix is more of a complete feed type mix or a balancer, but if the latter, then probably a vit/min supplement would do the job at a fraction of the price.

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Wren — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 17:42:32 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Wren"]horses would be fit and well if they'd had restricted grazing[/quote]

If the horse is confined to a box this of course can unfortunately lead to even more welfare problems - boredom, stress, box-walking, crib-biting, weaving, gastric ulcers...

The answer is to educate clients about pasture management - e.g. regular topping, no fertilisers, strip-grazing, 'starvation paddocks' etc.

[/quote]

This is my bread and butter and a conversation I have every single day. Actually so far 4 times today alone!

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

bob lehner — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 16:53:45 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]No!! I am spending considerable amounts of time and effort trying to keep my clients' horses off the bloody stuff. [/quote]

Of course - absolutely correct. Most horses are not well suited to managed lowland pasture.

[quote user="Wren"]horses would be fit and well if they'd had restricted grazing[/quote]

If the horse is confined to a box this of course can unfortunately lead to even more welfare problems - boredom, stress, box-walking, crib-biting, weaving, gastric ulcers...

The answer is to educate clients about pasture management - e.g. regular topping, no fertilisers, strip-grazing, 'starvation paddocks' etc.

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Emily Rainbow — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 11:50:49 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]

[quote user="Emily Rainbow"]

Mine is porky so gets balancer only at meal times when the others are fed.

[/quote] so there is some logic in giving him this ? He looks very well , shiny coat etc . Thanks Emily

[/quote]

No logic, just the lowest calorie thing I could find that he could have when the rest of the Yard is being fed!

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Anthony Todd — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 10:57:47 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]It's like the RAW clowns in small animal practice.[/quote]

Except these "clowns", or rather everyone before around 1970, did just that with far fewer problems than those arising from the diets promoted by the Dried Food Diet Profiteers of then and, even more, now.

There is now a whole sub-set of scientists and nutritionists necessary to keep cats and dogs healthy whilst on these unnatural diets for omnivorous animals.

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Iain Richards — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 10:46:42 GMT

OK, I'll modify my previous statement in the light of new evidence.

Crap grass, crap grass and more crap grass (ie no dairy paddocks)

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Kate Richardson — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 09:46:16 GMT

Wren what are your thoughts on all the supplements/additives out there? Are ANY of them of value?

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 09:39:26 GMT

Thanks Wren , that has been my approach despite advice to the contrary. He’s on a field on the snowline on the moors so not much grass and he is fit but not too fat . They also seem to rug them at the first drop of rain or light breeze whereas my cob looks like a woolly mammoth in winter and is fit as a flea despite the wuthering heights . I will keep him on the straight and narrow and ignore them

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Wren — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 09:14:35 GMT

And just to illustrate my point - two photos which I use very successfully to demonstrate to clients the dangers of modern grazing. Firstly a field at a local livery yard, and secondly a stretch of rough upland similar to what our native ponies have evolved to survive on:

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Wren — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 09:08:07 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]

Grass grass and more grass. Evolved to get fat in autumn, lean by spring

[/quote]

No!! I am spending considerable amounts of time and effort trying to keep my clients' horses off the bloody stuff. If you were treating 10+ cases of acute laminitis every week at the moment you might change your mind! It is heartbreaking to see so many horses in such pain day in, day out purely down to mismanagement and being allowed to get fat. Most of the horses/ponies in this country have evolved to live out 24/7 as grazing animals in areas of extremely poor grazing - think of the upper stretches of the Peak District/Welsh Mountains/Scottish Highlands and Islands (which is where most of our native breeds originate). The grazing is sparse, rough, poor and very fibrous. They forage a huge variety of plants eg. heather and similar, rather than grass. It takes them a long time to chew and digest this fibrous matter in comparison to grass, and they are forced to move almost constantly when grazing (studies with trackers showed ponies on this type of grazing covering >10 miles/day, whilst ponies on grass fields sometimes did not even cover 1 mile).

Now picture your average livery yard. A lot are ex livestock farms with grass which has been improved and fertilised over the decades to maximise liveweight gain for the cattle/sheep grazing it. Is it any surprise that horses balloon on this sort of pasture and end up crippled? Add to that the fact that almost every horse owner in the country, regardless of the work (or usually lack of) that their horses do feels the need to give it a bucket of hard feed twice a day, on top of its roughage.

I do agree with your point about weight fluctuation - it is something I preach - and I think that allowing the natural yearly rhythm of gaining and losing weight is something that we have lost, mostly because people won't allow their horses to drop any weight over the winter and head straight for the conditioning feeds the second they can see a rib. However fat is always wrong. It should be 'covered' by the end of summer and 'lean' by the end of winter.

Grass, in the form it exists in most of the UK, is just too dangerous for most of our horse population. It needs to be strictly limited - either by time spent grazing, by quality or by quantity.

I have two horses to see this morning that I will probably PTS. Both are case reviews of laminitics that are grossly overweight and despite all our efforts are past the point of responding to treatment, with irreversible changes in the hoof capsule. Although I will obviously not be so blunt to the owners, both horses would be fit and well if they'd had restricted grazing, more exercise and less feed. In my eyes this is more of a cruelty (and far, far more common) than a thin horse.

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Wed, 06 Jun 2018 21:54:17 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

It's like the RAW clowns in small animal practice. It is a complete scam predicated on middle class horsey girls.

Fool, money, soon parted.

[/quote] Thats what I thought and I can see how it works too. I don’t think it’s confined to middle class girls though , the prime devotee on our yard is male academic who has had horses all his life. The level of marketing in emotional sales blackmail in every horse supplier is incredible too. Thank you all for the logical veterinary advice that I was seeking.

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

David Mills — Wed, 06 Jun 2018 21:33:42 GMT

It's like the RAW clowns in small animal practice. It is a complete scam predicated on middle class horsey girls.

Fool, money, soon parted.

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Iain Richards — Wed, 06 Jun 2018 21:04:56 GMT

Grass grass and more grass. Evolved to get fat in autumn, lean by spring

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Wed, 06 Jun 2018 20:30:18 GMT

It’s such a guilt trip Bob , my horse gets a carrot if he’s lucky and these others are getting alfalfa , garlic, vitamins blah blah and they look at me like I’m some evil abusive witch when I say , he’s a healthy cob in peak condition and a native breed. And people keep telling me my Labrador is thin , she’s just the right weight!

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

bob lehner — Wed, 06 Jun 2018 20:16:11 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]Do horses really need all these fancy vitamin balancers and stuff[/quote]

Complete load if boll*cks imho...!

Horse owners love all this rubbish. Look at the shelves of herbal/natural products 'curing' everything from equine flatulence to nymphomania in your average horse supply shop.....someone must buy it!

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Wed, 06 Jun 2018 20:14:59 GMT

[quote user="Emily Rainbow"]

Mine is porky so gets balancer only at meal times when the others are fed.

[/quote] so there is some logic in giving him this ? He looks very well , shiny coat etc . Thanks Emily

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Emily Rainbow — Wed, 06 Jun 2018 19:34:26 GMT

Mine is porky so gets balancer only at meal times when the others are fed.

RE: Numpty horse question number 4

Anthony Todd — Wed, 06 Jun 2018 18:05:02 GMT

Six pence worth of cats' meat comes to mind, but that was back in the day before there was a massive industry based on feeding cats and all pets an unnatural, owner friendly, diet and correcting all the consequent problems either with additives or chemical intervention or worse........

And yes, I realise very hard working horses need more than grass.