LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Busybee — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:32:03 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Busybee"]delay socialisation until potentially 15 weeks old, or once covered with DHP, start going out and about but avoid fields/rivers etc?[/quote]

The latter sounds a better plan to me, but you probably have better knowledge of the diseases you see in your area. Here, parvo grumbles around whereas we've only seen lepto in unvacc'd farm dogs (while we're in the city).

[/quote]

We've only had 1 or 2 parvo cases in 7 years but diagnosed 4 or 5 definitively with lepto, and probably a few more go undiagnosed.

I do say once DHP in place, that they can socialise with vaccinated dogs in a 'safe' place ie. their home or garden and still carry them places or take them in the car. We advise they avoid dog-heavy areas and fields/rivers etc yntil covered with L4 too. Were fairly rural where we are.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Niall Taylor — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 19:56:01 GMT

[quote user="GrooveJet"]When was the last time you actually diagnosed Lepto in the UK? Mine was 8years ago...[/quote]

Cases are being diagnosed fairly regularly in the UK:

Ball, C., Dawson, S. and Williams, N. (2014) 'Leptospira cases and vaccination habits within UK vet-visiting dogs', Veterinary Record, vol 174, no. 11, p. 278 [http://www.rationalvetmed.org/papers_b.html#Ball2014]

Niall

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Beats — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 19:49:40 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Why delay socialisation at all?

i suggest it is low risk to have vaccinated dogs go to a puppy or a puppy go to vaccinated dogs. Just not out on the road!

[/quote]

I guess it depends where you live.

My only advice is to avoid areas where there are lots of other dogs exercising freely (I name the places locally). This is simultaneously from a parvo-avoidance and adverse-dog-experience point-of-view.

I would consider a walk round the block in the owner's area to be of extremely low risk at any stage, personally. Surely the owner is as likely to walk parvo into the house if it's on the pavement outside as the pup is to encounter it there?

I can't imagine changing what I would do with a pup based on perceived lepto risk.

I do DHPL4 at 8 and 12 weeks and 6 months. Personally, I'd drop the L4 from the puppy bit and do it at 6 and 7 months maybe instead if doing. But it all goes on local risk etc.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Beats — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 19:41:50 GMT

Last lepto case I serovar tested from a puppy was hebdomadis and last one in adult dog was *probably* bratislava (though I think a 50% correct rate is about what expected from memory)

Clinic I work in uses Nobivac L4 and I would personally not choose to vaccinate young puppies (happy to do them bit older) with this based on relatively low disease prevalence I suspect and the fact that (in my hands) it consistently stings about 10 seconds after injection in puppies - some don't react, most scratch a bit, but fair number howl the place down in the second most dramatic response to any injectable drug in a dog/cat I've personally observed (I had a boss that gave alamycin LA to cats once...). Call me a wimp, but I hate it.

Michael, what strains are you seeing and are these puppies or adult dogs?

I also guess I see 2 to 3 cases a year, but I'm never sure if that's underdiagnosing or overdiagnosing them! I see bit more parvo (and it seems to be much more fatal than what I remember 10 years ago)

The Idexx PCR on blood+urine is quite good value and I tend to take samples to allow for future testing before giving them shot of amox if lepto is a reasonable differential. I also take a serum and freeze it so can take further sample in week or so for rising MAT titres if wished at later date. Given the former undoubtedly will miss many cases, and the latter is a retrospective test really, the diagnostics are really more there for monitoring to inform vaccine recommendations rather than for the individual patient.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Joyce Whitehead — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 09:23:20 GMT

Oh yes we allow socialisation with vaccinated dogs, in fact positively encourage it! And taking out in arms/car etc to see new sights.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Bob Russell — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 09:20:59 GMT

Why delay socialisation at all?

i suggest it is low risk to have vaccinated dogs go to a puppy or a puppy go to vaccinated dogs. Just not out on the road!

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 00:37:20 GMT

[quote user="GrooveJet"]When was the last time you actually diagnosed Lepto in the UK? Mine was 8years ago...[/quote]

2-4 times per year with probably 1.5-2 vets FTE small animal work. Quite common. I put one to sleep end of last year and the owner had lost their father a month or so before to cancer. Was dad's dog. All very sad and very preventable.

Havn't seen parvo for probably 10 years.

Currently on Merial's L2 but will move to L3 when lambing over and we have more time.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Joyce Whitehead — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 22:58:05 GMT

We do the latter, out after DHP, but avoid rivers and farmyards etc till after the second L4.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Rob Loxley — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 21:55:21 GMT

[quote user="Busybee"]delay socialisation until potentially 15 weeks old, or once covered with DHP, start going out and about but avoid fields/rivers etc?[/quote]

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Busybee — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 21:05:49 GMT

The Nobivac L4 vaccine is designed to be given as 2 vaccinations 4 weeks apart. The data sheet states that 'full immunity' is in place 3 weeks after the second vaccine. With regards to socialisation, do people recommend that pups wait until after that 3 week period, and so delay socialisation until potentially 15 weeks old, or once covered with DHP, start going out and about but avoid fields/rivers etc?

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Julie Innes — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 17:52:46 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]We really only see Lepto of the major vaccine diseases, can’t remember the last time I saw a parvo. [/quote]

We are the total opposite! the only time I've ever heard of a case of leptospirosis was my old boss, who caught it himself! But I've seen loads and loads of parvo!!

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Joyce Whitehead — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 16:55:51 GMT

We had two cases last year, didn’t test serovars as no money in either case! But I’m as sure as I can be that that was the cause. One was milder and survived with aggressive fluids and nursing. The other was put to sleep after 24 hours due to massive deterioration. Both only vaccinated as pups and both from farm environments. We really only see Lepto of the major vaccine diseases, can’t remember the last time I saw a parvo.

But then we are very rurally located. We use L4, and find a bit of stinging, but less if the vaccine isn’t fridge cold. And we go for the 10 week DHP then out and last L4 at 12 weeks.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 16:02:21 GMT

[quote user="MartinH1"]We explain the disease, how awful it is [/quote]

But Martin, don't you know that it's just a mild illness that is easily cured with a course of antibiotics?

(Also, the safety and efficacy of the vaccine has never been tested, the protection lasts only 6 months at most and sometimes only weeks, covers only 4 of the 140+ serovars that exist (yet somehow only vaccinating against 2/140 is better) and 1000s upon millions of dogs have had horrific reactions or died after the vaccine it's just not worth the risk won't someone please think of the children for god's sake...)

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Martin Hamilton — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 15:36:56 GMT

In my last job I diagnosed a dog with lepto in Dec 2017 - owners had been vaccinating homeopathically. Strain was one of those covered by L2 vacc.

We vaccinate for L4 here across the pond, as all 4 serovars are endemic and we have a large reservoir population in the form of foxes, raccoons and coyotes. We still have plenty of people who refuse the Lepto vacc all together thanks to a combination of Google and breeders. We explain the disease, how awful it is and give owners resources so they can have a better informed view on it.

Anyway, when I was back in the UK our practice (who vacced for L2) saw an increase in new clients when the other clinic in town switched to L4, many of whom called in advance to make sure it was L2 that we used. People can be fickle

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Miriam Lodewyks — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 15:03:29 GMT

We too use L4 and apart from being more stinging, I haven't had any issues and my clients also seem pleased we've extended cover.

As to whether this is truly necessary or just a marketing ploy... hard to tell.

When was the last time you actually diagnosed Lepto in the UK? Mine was 8years ago...

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Rob Loxley — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 13:52:45 GMT

We stock some L4, mainly for people who've started on that elsewhere, but also for people travelling to eastern europe. We find lepto very infrequent and the few cases have been the classical UK serovars. As routine we're still with L2.

For those using L4 in puppies, do you start to socialise after the 2nd DHP at say 10 weeks, or wait til the final L4 at 12 weeks? Really, of the core diseases we vaccinate against, parvo is the only one we see.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 13:05:17 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]The thing I really dislike with the L4 is that it seems to sting, especially in puppies[/quote]

We use nobivac, and I haven't seen any increase in stinging reactions at all.

[quote user="Julie Innes"] I'm not aware of any cases of lepto locally involving those extra serovars. If that changes, obviously we will change. [/quote]

The problem with that approach is that you then have a novel disease and a large unvaccinated population. When clients ask the inevitable question 'is it a problem around here?' I just point out that vaccinations are best carried out before the disease arrives! (I suppose that zero cases, ever, would be a good thing, no?)

[quote user="Julie Innes"]But it sounds like changing over is a bit of a hassle, with all the dogs having to come back for a second L4 initially? I'd need to have a good reason to expose myself to the moaning that would incite in my clients![/quote]

I also dreaded it... but I have been amazed that clients have actually embraced it. But, look at it from their perspective...you are offering a FOC appointment for a FOC vaccination, and increasing their level of protection. And if they dont bother to come in for it, the dog is no worse off for it than it would have been. What not to love?

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Bob Russell — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:20:18 GMT

We have made a three part puppy course our norm anyway. I try to use an 8, 12 and 16 week protocol. If they have had an L2 start it means we can upgrade to L Multi.

Our vaccine is an L3 one. Does not sting nor do we get the large numbers of lumps we did with Versican.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:18:58 GMT

[quote user="emma o'connor"]do you charge for 3 separate vaccination appointments or as an all in one charge[/quote] We charge for the vaccination course at the first appointment, and haven't changed our price due to the extra appointment. We try to get them in to see our qualified nurses for the second/ third vacs when appropriate.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

emma o'connor — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 09:54:20 GMT

We still use Lepto 2 for our primary and booster vaccinations, however, we do stock Lepto 4 now as a number of new clients are registering with dogs having had the Lepto 4, so we continue with this for them. Also we have breeders who do request Lepto 4, as well as those who would rather Lepto 2, and they appreciate being able to have the choice. As far as I believe only one of the additional serovars has been reported in the U.K. We have a number of clients who regulary travel to Europe and we discuss with them whether L4 is more appropriate in that case. I do worry with the Lepto 4 about the socialising for young puppies given the 28 day interval. I can see where a 3 vaccination primary course may help with this but those of you who do this do you charge for 3 separate vaccination appointments or as an all in one charge? Does this end up being more costly for the client over a traditional 2 dose primary course?

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:53:00 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]But it sounds like changing over is a bit of a hassle, with all the dogs having to come back for a second L4 initially?[/quote]

It is a bit of a faff, but MSD support with extra doses mean no cost to the client, we found the uptake was good, with not much extra moaning I think you are correct that keeping local disease profiles in mind is key

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Julie Innes — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:34:11 GMT

We're still using L2. Lots of my clients are very anti the L4, and I'm not aware of any cases of lepto locally involving those extra serovars. If that changes, obviously we will change. But it sounds like changing over is a bit of a hassle, with all the dogs having to come back for a second L4 initially? I'd need to have a good reason to expose myself to the moaning that would incite in my clients!

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:19:04 GMT

We are similar to everyone else I think. Changed over a few years ago. Lepto in vaccinated dogs a few years ago (2014 I think) in the local area (Bristol) which was thought to be due to Australis/Bratislava. Seems close enough to me to be worth covering (I walk my dog at Ashton Court sometimes!)

No increase in adverse reactions bar the fact that it does seem to sting a bit more. Like Emily, we do the second DHP 2wk after the first DHP/L4 so they can go out and start to socialise, just avoiding areas that might be considered high lepto risk. Final L4 4wks after the first.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Utlendigur — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 22:59:37 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Trying to be, although you do have +/- 2 days

[/quote]

I thought they had relaxed that last year? - co-incidentally when there were problems with the L4 supply

The thing I really dislike with the L4 is that it seems to sting, especially in puppies. Even if you warn the owner, it doesn't look great to have the pup start screaming the place down.

RE: LEPTO 2 OR LEPTO 4 ?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 21:59:21 GMT

Trying to be, although you do have +/- 2 days