Megoestrol acetate

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Marie Kubiak — Sun, 18 Mar 2018 07:53:25 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

Is the zoo outside BIAZA etc ? Maybe easier to tell them to join the stud book and transfer individuals elsewhere reciprocally to widen the gene pool .

[/quote]

We are BIAZA and EAZA members and in communication with the EEP but without available places for them we have responsibility to look after these animals and manage their population.

Marie

RE: Megoestrol acetate

grumpyoldman — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 22:54:03 GMT

Is the zoo outside BIAZA etc ? Maybe easier to tell them to join the stud book and transfer individuals elsewhere reciprocally to widen the gene pool . Only seen ovarid used reproductively in the dim distant past in domestic cats but it did "seem" to produce pyometra's and possibly Mammary masses. I have also seen older captive big cats develop pyometra just when deprived of mates in the days when circuses travelled with live animals.

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Marie Kubiak — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 15:51:52 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

That's interesting to know, I always thought they can't. Was that in canides or other species?

[/quote]

Mine was in meerkats but successful pregnancies have occurred in a variety of canids, including the species I am focusing on.

Marie

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 15:05:05 GMT

That's interesting to know, I always thought they can't. Was that in canides or other species?

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Richard Carter — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 13:25:34 GMT

think depo-provera is the human equivalent of delvosterone - may still be available?

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Marie Kubiak — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 09:47:50 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

But Marie, why do they need any injection at all? Surely they can't stay pregnant once the implant is in, pups will be absorbed by 4 weeks of age.

[/quote]

Unfortunately that isn't the case. I am aware of multiple cases (one in animals under my care) where animals have given birth when implanted after conception, or conceived during the oestrus induced by the implant and successfully carried to term.

Marie

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 09:30:28 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]They're not the easiest to dart as a highly active group and tend to destroy the darts pretty quickly! Since the implants are generally effective after 2-3wks surely there isn't the need for repeated injections though?[/quote]

But Marie, why do they need any injection at all? Surely they can't stay pregnant once the implant is in, pups will be absorbed by 4 weeks of age.

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Marie Kubiak — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 08:41:00 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

Hi Marie

Could you give the bitches prophylactic Alizin injections every 40 days until the implants kick in?

Mark

[/quote]

Given that these are African Wild Dogs, would this be difficult to do? Assuming that they're not that easy to handle. A dart gun/blowpipe may be used, but with Alizin being so thick and gloopy would the dart empty properly?

Or just sedate them every 40 days for an Alizin injection?

[/quote]

They're not the easiest to dart as a highly active group and tend to destroy the darts pretty quickly! Since the implants are generally effective after 2-3wks surely there isn't the need for repeated injections though?

Current plan after speaking to MSD is to inject in crush with delvosteron 1wk prior to planned implant and hope they don't freak out and then refuse to go in the crush when we need to sedate them for the implant!

Marie

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 22:52:01 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

Hi Marie

Could you give the bitches prophylactic Alizin injections every 40 days until the implants kick in?

Mark

[/quote]

Or just sedate them every 40 days for an Alizin injection?

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Rob Loxley — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:43:16 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="robloxley"]I'd suggest a more likely way forward might be getting drug companies to supply infrequently used drugs in smaller quantities [/quote]

Because you sell 20ml instead of 5.

[/quote]

I suspect in the case of Delvosteron that the amount used has probably decreased overall as a result of discard instructions (but also other options such as suprelorin). I wouldn't expect 1ml of Delvo to be 1/20th of the cost of 20ml, but still to be more affordable to clients.

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Anthony Todd — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 19:05:45 GMT

sorry. I keep duplicating posts??

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Anthony Todd — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 19:05:18 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Which powers that be, challenge whom?[/quote]

BVA would be a start.

[quote user="robloxley"]how can it be sensible to supply Delvosterone which is very rarely used at over 5ml (and mostly less than 1ml) in a 20ml dose single-use vial?[/quote]

Um, er, it couldn't just be more drug sold at more profit i don't suppose?

[quote user="robloxley"]In the case of Delvosteron I'd be interested to know why immediate discard is on the datasheet rather than the standard 28 days. The New Zealand datasheet doesn't mention discard time?[/quote]

Exactly!

[quote user="robloxley"]I'd suggest a more likely way forward might be getting drug companies to supply infrequently used drugs in smaller quantities [/quote]

Because you sell 20ml instead of 5.

Vets should start charging for each ovary and spay animals twice.....

[I know you agree with me]

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Rob Loxley — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:20:47 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]It is based on no facts, no research, not even any anecdotal evidence[/quote]

In the case of Delvosteron I'd be interested to know why immediate discard is on the datasheet rather than the standard 28 days. The New Zealand datasheet doesn't mention discard time?

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]vet powers that be challenge one of the greatest cons in the veterinary world[/quote]

Which powers that be, challenge whom?

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I'm turbo posting again, but only because absolutely nothing ever happens at all![/quote]

I'd suggest a more likely way forward might be getting drug companies to supply infrequently used drugs in smaller quantities - how can it be sensible to supply Delvosterone which is very rarely used at over 5ml (and mostly less than 1ml) in a 20ml dose single-use vial?

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Anthony Todd — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 17:33:20 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]especially for a product that was used for years (20+) without problems for months after broaching both in efficacy and sterility (possibly even up to years in some practices?) and then the paperwork changed.....[/quote]

In any other field this would be known as a "rort" by the manufacturer and the licenser.

It is based on no facts, no research, not even any anecdotal evidence ,yet today's vets just swallow it, and the client pays, which is funny really 'cos the vets get blamed for overcharging.

It really is about time the vet powers that be challenge one of the greatest cons in the veterinary world.

I'm turbo posting again, but only because absolutely nothing ever happens at all!

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 17:22:53 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]I am placing suprelorin implants but wanted to avoid the induced oestrus- megoestrol acetate is the EGZAC recommendation for this but isn't available.[/quote]

But would it matter? She won't keep the pregnancy anyway due to hypoluteoidism.

What about norethisterone like in greyhounds?

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Mark Rowland — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 16:29:20 GMT

Hi Marie

Could you give the bitches prophylactic Alizin injections every 40 days until the implants kick in?

Mark

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Rob Loxley — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 16:12:58 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

This is where science and reality diverge from expectation (nice to have/ Western European problem) Most practices in the rest of the world run their medications until they are finished and many charities run their entire operations with 'expired' stock. You would know if there were abscesses, septicaemias etc or in the case of delvosterone, the desired hormone effect would be poor/ absent.

So of course in the UK we pander to public expectation and throw away perfectly good medicine into the ever increasing landfill.

[/quote]

So where is the system broken that the drug companies don't respond to such issues; are they oblivious, are they just keen to rake in the money, is it too expensive to vary the packaging e.g. 1ml individual vials?? We potentially risk losing such medications from the market if they are priced out of everyday use and sales plummet?

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Richard Carter — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:34:11 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Whether it is effective or poses any risk doesn't matter...the client is paying for a certain standard of service! [/quote]

So of course in the UK we pander to public expectation and throw away perfectly good medicine into the ever increasing landfill.

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Julie Innes — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:28:39 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Certainly. But we aren't supposed to use cost as a reason for breaking the rules. It is frustrating, but there it is.[/quote]

I know, but I don't care . Cost impinges on animal welfare, which I'm less prepared to compromise.

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:25:10 GMT

But, in actuality, how could you actually know this?

I know that I wouldn't want my dog/ferret or chicken injected with something that was on the shelf for months or years after first use. Whether it is effective or poses any risk doesn't matter...the client is paying for a certain standard of service!

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:22:21 GMT

That's fine as long as that is clearly explained to the client. I just get annoyed when clients think we're just massively expensive compared to Jo Bloggs next door! [quote user="Julie Innes"]I think the risk to the jill of oestrogen induced anaemia is higher than the risk of having an "out of date" injection[/quote]

Certainly. But we aren't supposed to use cost as a reason for breaking the rules. It is frustrating, but there it is.

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Clive Ansell — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 10:46:04 GMT

I don't know of a single practice that disposes of Delvosterone after a single use, it often sits on the shelf for months.

One of my practices has an Afghan hound breeder on the books who flatly refuses to pay for a whole bottle every time, and has signed for off label use of previously opened bottles (Unsure if that would carry weight legally?) (Fortunately, I don't get to see her because she refuses to see a "f***ing locum" {She is described by staff as a good client, would hate to think what a bad one would be like})

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Richard Carter — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:15:35 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"] I think the risk to the jill of oestrogen induced anaemia is higher than the risk of having an "out of date" injection[/quote] especially for a product that was used for years (20+) without problems for months after broaching both in efficacy and sterility (possibly even up to years in some practices?) and then the paperwork changed.....

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Julie Innes — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:58:27 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Hmmm...some vets still offer 'jill jabs' for £10 though. [/quote]

I only keep delvo for the very few ferrets we have, and try to get them in at a similar time. I explain to them that the bottle should be discarded after being breached, but that doing that the cost would be (for most of them) prohibitive. I just can't bring myself to charge £60/ 70 for a jill jab. I know there would be no uptake. So jills would come into season with associated dangers, and that doesn't sit right with me either. It's one occasion where I am happy to slightly break the rules as long as the owners understand and consent. I think the risk to the jill of oestrogen induced anaemia is higher than the risk of having an "out of date" injection

RE: Megoestrol acetate

Niall Taylor — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:25:22 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Hmmm...some vets still offer 'jill jabs' for £10 though. [/quote]

Homeopathy perhaps - a highly dilute tincture of ferret testicles?

Niall