Old dog night time anxiety

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 10:40:09 GMT

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]Behaviour and treatment of its disorder is absolutely a science, it is predictable and repeatable.[/quote]This is true Eilidh - in dogs with a normally functioning brain which can think rationally if the reasons for the behavioural disorders are addressed and can look forward to a normal life but we are talking about the probability this dog has the onset of senile dementia and it is only going to get worse. Any treatment has minimal effect if any and if the animal or its owner is suffering from loss of quality of life then euthanasia is a reasonable treatment option.

There are many humans who are trapped in senility with family carers whose lives are severely affected and quite frankly euthanasia would be the best option for them. As already said I would rather be dead than senile. Why impose this on a dog?

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Richard Carter — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 10:08:37 GMT

and I'm prepared to work from the 'one medicine, one world' side of the argument than 'animals are dumb beasts'

Quite prepared to accept that selgian, vivitonin and similar have no or negligible effect on cns activity once dementia has set in. Don't sell it and having had a parent with Alzheimers filled to brim with rubbish 'behavioural' medication don't think the medics have anything beyond sedation or tranquillisers either.

The new research into targeted genetic treatment on the brain deposits looks promising

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Eilidh Corr — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:32:30 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Ah there's nothing like making a strawman argument[/quote]

Surely by suggesting that it is unfair to treat these animals you're suggesting euthanasia is a better alternative - or are you a proponent of benign neglect until something suitably physical and scientific comes along to justify it?

Behaviour and treatment of its disorder is absolutely a science, it is predictable and repeatable. Are you oblivious to the work of Mills, Wright and Zulch at the University of Lincoln?

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

David Mills — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 11:53:40 GMT

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"] by someone who opines that it should be widely replaced by euthanasia.[/quote]

Ah there's nothing like making a strawman argument to avoid uncomfortable questions about behavioural "medicine".

Do you think behaviour "medicine" is scientific or a social science?

[quote user="Richard Carter"]Please don't start that cr.p about animals don't think/ experience pain/ anxiety when we know the same neurotransmitters as we have in our cns is common across the mammal range[/quote]

Whoever said that old boy?

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Richard Carter — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 11:35:59 GMT

Am happy to provide some sedation and anxiety relief and as both the owner and myself would not be able to quantify just how much OA discomfort or other issues are affecting the pet and tramadol appears to be fairly effective overnight in most cases by owner observation - i.e everyone got some sleep. I think nocturnal activity exhausting for both parties and sometimes it just needs a good overnight sleep pattern to improve the day experience.

Please don't start that cr.p about animals don't think/ experience pain/ anxiety when we know the same neurotransmitters as we have in our cns is common across the mammal range. Trying to deny it because the correct testing hasn't been done is Victorian. I remember some horrific stats being trotted out as facts as an undergraduate such as horses can breath air at 100 C but it is already at body temperature by time it is in the lungs..... so who tested that???

The reasoning part may be less primate but our pets certainly are thinking - even if it is whether to get on the bed or eat the cat's food.

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Eilidh Corr — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 08:24:17 GMT

As for your knowledge and understanding of veterinary behavioural medicine, or lack of it, I'm sure I can recall that we've discussed this before. Given that the caseload seen in practice is heavy with behaviour cases, I'll be guided by the specialists who are working in this area rather than by someone who opines that it should be widely replaced by euthanasia.

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Eilidh Corr — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 08:20:36 GMT

With respect David, I lived with the dog in question, so you've lost me when describing my history as "fantastical". If you're as patronising of your clients as you are towards your veterinary peers I pity them.

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

David Mills — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 01:18:30 GMT

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]While we have a very limited evidence base for behavioural medication, there's a limited evidence base for a lot of what we do as vets[/quote]

Two wrongs don't make a right, and besides we have a magnitude of evidence for most things when compared to behaviour.

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]t doesn't mean we shouldn't try to intervene[/quote]

Only if that intervention is likely to be successful.

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]Enough is known about dog body language and behavioural disorders that we can and should be treating emotional pain and distress just as we should treat physical illness.[/quote]

Disagree. Behaviourism went out in the 70s didn't it? I thought most people now used triangulation?

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"] At the end of the day we treat physical ailments by making assumptions about the level of pain and discomfort experienced by our patients[/quote]

To some extent, measurable, and capable of being objectified.

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]I don't see that to be any different to us making assumptions about their emotional state. [/quote]

With respect, you should. It is worlds, galaxies apart. Unless you've solved the philosophical problem of other minds?

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]ho spend 90% of their day with an excellent QOL, is unreasonable in my opinion.[/quote]

This is fantastical. By the time they become clinical, dementia dogs are affected far more than 10% of the day. In my line in the sand, even 10% is a worrying amount of time to be confused, distressed and frightened. Would you happily be so for 2.4 hours every day??

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Eilidh Corr — Sat, 30 Dec 2017 18:32:54 GMT

I can only speak from my own experiences - in the case of these clients I always make it clear from the outset that euthanasia is a valid and reasonable course of action in which I will support the owners if they choose it.

When my own dog suffered from this problem, we were faced with an active, "young", physically very fit dog who enjoyed a full and normal life, until darkness fell, when he would become anxious and distressed. This would occur randomly, some nights not happening at all and at other times it would happen regularly. Once we got his medication sorted out, he was fine - occasionally a bit dozy after the trazodone dose each evening, but no more than any other 14 year old dog would be expected to be at that time of day, and it certainly didn't prevent him from enjoying walks, and playing with the younger dog and my children during the day.

When we moved house and his anxiety levels dramatically increased, beyond what the medication could help with, he became unpredictably aggressive, so we put him to sleep. It broke my heart because his body was remarkably sound for his age, but it was at that point the kindest thing to do.

While we have a very limited evidence base for behavioural medication, there's a limited evidence base for a lot of what we do as vets and it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to intervene. Enough is known about dog body language and behavioural disorders that we can and should be treating emotional pain and distress just as we should treat physical illness. At the end of the day we treat physical ailments by making assumptions about the level of pain and discomfort experienced by our patients and I don't see that to be any different to us making assumptions about their emotional state.

Idon't dispute that careful judgement is required in these cases, particularly when physical debilitation or concurrent illness is a complicating factor, but to argue that the only option we should be offering is euthanasia, in dogs who spend 90% of their day with an excellent QOL, is unreasonable in my opinion.

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 30 Dec 2017 10:38:05 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Is it fair to medicate these confused, often intermittently distressed old dogs at all?

[/quote]For once in my life I actually agree with David Mills OMG!

If it is taking a cocktail of drugs to medicate a dog which obviously has limited quality of life and the behaviour of which is reducing the quality of life of the owner (after all if we're all honest the driving force for owning a pet is for our own pleasure) and keeping it alive just to discharge our debt to it what's the point? I wouldn't want if for myself.

Obviously only the observer can really estimate quality of life but we need to be careful we're not going into denial over it.

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

David Mills — Sat, 30 Dec 2017 08:33:44 GMT

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]

If the medication stops them being confused and distressed then it's as fair as it is to medicate an arthritic dog for pain. That's the whole point - improving their welfare!

[/quote]

Hardly the same old fruit.

There is a wealth of evidence for the use of say NSAIDs in OA and the response is far more predictable. As this threat has highlighted, the response to doping up a dog with dementia is at best patchy and, even if some effect shown (highly dependent on caregiver subjective measures) it is normally very limited.

Who says you're improving their welfare? Like much of behavioural medicine, there is a hell of a lot of quite dodgy extrapolation from humans (how do you measure whether a dog is amnesic of an event?!). Have you considered you may just be sedating the dog daily? Does this benefit the animal?

E.g. The following statement is very telling

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]My own dog ended up on trazodone for a long time, which didn't cure the problem 100% but it definitely damped it down enough that we mostly got some sleep.[/quote]

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Eilidh Corr — Sat, 30 Dec 2017 08:07:15 GMT

If the medication stops them being confused and distressed then it's as fair as it is to medicate an arthritic dog for pain. That's the whole point - improving their welfare!

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

David Mills — Sat, 30 Dec 2017 00:00:15 GMT

Is it fair to medicate these confused, often intermittently distressed old dogs at all?

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Eilidh Corr — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 22:39:29 GMT

I've had a number of these cases over the years (including my own dog, giving me incredible sympathy for these owners). I think checking BP is a good shout, but in essence I have found that hitting on the right combination for these cases is a bit trial and error.

My own dog ended up on trazodone for a long time, which didn't cure the problem 100% but it definitely damped it down enough that we mostly got some sleep. I have had another case do absolutely fantastically, complete turnaround, when I put it on melatonin. Just some things you can try.

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Eilidh Corr — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 21:57:32 GMT

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Fiona Chapman — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 22:14:08 GMT

I believe selgian is the licensed drug in these cases. A combination approach of behaviour modification (providing 'den' including Adaptil nearby or Adaptil collar and training to settle/rewarding settled behaviour in den/crate/bed) plus selgian might work...Xanax is useful as it has retrograde as well as anterograde amnesic properties (i.e. if the dog has a panic and they give Xanax immediately after it should prevent memories forming of the fearful event) and I believe is less likely to cause liver issues than Diazepam. I have also used Fluoxetine (Prozac) for generalised anxiety in dogs but I think wrt cascade you should probably start with Selgian...it does take at least 6 weeks to take effect though so Xanax (plus Aktivait/Adaptil etc) will be useful in the mean time. I would agree though, suspicious that there ay be some underlying medical cause, but tricky when the owners aren't keen to investigate further!

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Tomas Hansen — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 19:46:19 GMT

Thinking dementia as well.. Hill’s have made b/d prescription diet for older dogs with cognitive

dysfunction. Could be part of the solution.

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Busybee — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 19:24:25 GMT

Another vote to try Selgian. I find it often works well initially then the symptoms worsen and it's not quite enough. Have used diazepam as a top up in one case, very successfully. In this case, we also found that it wasn't lasting long enough, until we used it alongside Selgian at a REGULAR evening dose for a month which seemed to crack it!

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

John Wessels — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 19:09:20 GMT

[quote user="nobbygonzo"]

Sorry to be vague but any suggestions on this? 13yo crossbreed, getting increasingly anxious at various times through the night (but also occasionally in the day). Addisonian and does suffer from noise phobia (but owner is adamant latter is not triggering) On nsaid/tramadol for OA.Tried diazepam but effects not long lasting enough and cannot tolerate higher doses. Discussed Sileo but suspect will find same issue. Xanax?? Admit there could be a medical reason but not found it yet...and never quite got to the bottom of why some senior dogs seem to get this nocturnal anxiety. Tried lights, white noise, background noise, change of room, valerian... Thanks!

[/quote]

Reminds me of my mum: dementia.

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 19:01:47 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Have you tried Zylkene, Calmex or Aktivait?[/quote]

You could also consider Vivitonin or Nutramind.

[/quote] +1 for vivitonin ( or vivid onion as predictive text suggests)

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:54:31 GMT

[quote user="Lesley Strong"]Had a few like this with sky high BP and helped by amlodipine[/quote]Is benazepril not a better anti-hypertensive in dogs?, I tend to reserve amlodipine for cats.

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Lesley Strong — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 15:53:54 GMT

Might be worth checking Blood pressure . Had a few like this with sky high BP and helped by amlodipine

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Joyce Whitehead — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:55:09 GMT

Definitely try Selgian, it works really well in many of these dogs.

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:17:30 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Have you tried Zylkene, Calmex or Aktivait?[/quote]

You could also consider Vivitonin or Nutramind.

RE: Old dog night time anxiety

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:05:36 GMT

[quote user="nobbygonzo"]Discussed Sileo but suspect will find same issue.[/quote]I've found Sileo very ineffective, largely I suspect due to the fact that it is very difficult (nearly impossible) to get into the buccal pouch and stop the dog from swallowing it.

Have you tried Zylkene, Calmex or Aktivait?