Dantrium in blocked cats

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:30:20 GMT

Even if this exchange isn't decided I just want to try, against almost evangelical odds, to make sure that the presence of "crystals" in urine, while "common" is definitely not normal and could, so obviously, be the precursor of stones, as is shown in humans.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:08:05 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Please explain how your paper on human kidney stone formation explains everything about feline bladder stone formation?[/quote]

I don't think there can be any difference between the urine in the kidney pelvis and the bladder?

In humans stones in the ureter are not unknown.

Altered membrane lipids promote face selective nucleation and retention of calcium oxalate crystals, and in the process become a part of the growing crystals and stones.

This is as close as I can get ie as written above. ["face selective nucleation" is way beyond me!]

The point surely is to accept [unless someone can refute it] that there is a mechanism in humans and, therefore, the presence of crystals in cat-urine should not be dismissed as "normal" as they may be, admittedly only in Jackson's "stone formers", the precursor of stones.

I haven't seen any other explanations.

As an aside Jackson found that some cats would never form even crystals no matter how high their Mg++ diet was; a cat had to be a "stone former" and this paper refers to some humans as "stone formers" too.

Here's another reference:

Kidney Int. 2002 Dec;62(6):2062-72.

Presence of lipids in urine, crystals and stones: implications for the formation of kidney stones.

Khan SR1, Glenton PA, Backov R, Talham DR.

CONCLUSIONS:

Stone forming conditions in the kidneys greatly impact their epithelial cells producing significant differences in the urinary lipids between healthy and stone forming individuals. Altered membrane lipids promote face selective nucleation and retention of calcium oxalate crystals, and in the process become a part of the growing crystals and stones.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Rob Loxley — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:44:46 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Come on anonymous, expected, one starrer read the paper and the quote then tell me why it doesn't explain how feline crystalluria changes into feline uroliths[/quote]

Please explain how your paper on human kidney stone formation explains everything about feline bladder stone formation?

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:02:18 GMT

Come on anonymous, expected, one starrer read the paper and the quote then tell me why it doesn't explain how feline crystalluria changes into feline uroliths.

I'll bet few of us understood how crystals went to stones before this quote?!

Makes me sneer when the righteous quote EBVM, but only when it suits their dogma...

Almost religious but definitely not scientific!

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:40:27 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]You may need to consider the difference between microscopic crystals in solution, and those that have come out of solution to form uroliths.[/quote]

Kidney International

Volume 62, Issue 6, December 2002, Pages 2062-2072

First reference I turned up, just to give you a taster and, strangely not cited in

our universally accepted research paper by a highly respected feline specialist.

A cherry-picked quote:

Conclusions. Stone forming conditions in the kidneys greatly impact their epithelial cells producing significant differences in the urinary lipids between healthy and stone forming individuals. Altered membrane lipids promote face selective nucleation and retention of calcium oxalate crystals, and in the process become a part of the growing crystals and stones.

I'll look for more if you like??

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:35:13 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]You may need to consider the difference between microscopic crystals in solution, and those that have come out of solution to form uroliths.[/quote]

Er, these were in cats we were unblocking because of struvite aggregated crystals or mini stones [sorry, but this emoticon seems to be in vogue]

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:31:53 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]You're wasting your time Thomas if Tony will not accept the accumulative wisdom of this forum and a universally accepted research paper by a highly respected feline specialist.[/quote]

Actually not too much "research", just a lot of dogmatic, somewhat illogical, statements if you actually read it carefully and critically, "supported" by one interesting reference; the "blood stones".

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 09:37:40 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]You may need to consider the difference between microscopic crystals in solution, and those that have come out of solution to form uroliths.[/quote]You're wasting your time Thomas if Tony will not accept the accumulative wisdom of this forum and a universally accepted research paper by a highly respected feline specialist.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 08:28:17 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]If you totally discount the significance of let's guess 20grams of crystals in a full bladder of a blocked cat is normal then, OK, crystals are normal and, indeed, no other cause is needed to be found![/quote]

You may need to consider the difference between microscopic crystals in solution, and those that have come out of solution to form uroliths.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 17:03:25 GMT

Seen this before and stopped after the first page when I got to this:

A diagnosis of feline idiopathic cystitis(FIC) is made when no other cause can be found (Hostutler et al 2005, Westropp 2006). Affected cats typically have concentrated, sterile urine, and unremarkable double-contrast bladder radiographs and urethral studies. However, it is important to remember that crystalluria is normal in any cat with concentrated urine; up to 1000 colonyforming units/ml of bacteria is considered as sterile even in urine collected by cystocentesis; and ~15% of cats with FIC have ventro-apical thickening of their bladder wall which can be seen on radiographs (Hostutler et al 2005)

Particularly when I got to this:

it is important to remember that crystalluria is normal in any cat with concentrated urine

So how do stones form then?? May be the fairies??

Try telling that to a cat with either a so-called urethral plug, full of crystals, or any of the manufacturers who have been playing with urinary pH at vast expense and battling palatability, to get rid of these "normal" crystals.

If you totally discount the significance of let's guess 20grams of crystals in a full bladder of a blocked cat is normal then, OK, crystals are normal and, indeed, no other cause is needed to be found!

I'm amazed that these views are quoted as gospel when common experience must query them!

BTW Westropp 2006 is really a report of urinary calculi made of apparently dried blood which I have never seen or heard of, but is cited in apparent support of FIC although probably not related at all.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 16:49:00 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]erm click on the link then.[/quote]

Will do [it wasn't underlined so I thought you were red with rage....]

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 16:37:14 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Just a couple of references then please, all I have ever asked for.....[/quote]...erm click on the link then.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 16:34:30 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]is all based on sound research[/quote]

Just a couple of references then please, all I have ever asked for.....

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 16:25:37 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I know this is turbo posting but when the same subject comes up, again and again, and the same contentious [IMHO] answers and theories are trotted out, and swallowed by intelligent vets, I can't help but reply.[/quote]You're right Tony we keep telling you but you choose to believe what you believe so its a waste of time repeating it. There's nothing contentious or 'IMHO' about if, apart from your side, it is all based on sound research.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 15:11:57 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I really am defeated by the ambiguity (and that is a polite word) of this question.[/quote]

Sorry,, I see what you mean, You should have said "duality" so, going back to the first reply:

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote the rest of us are able to distinguish between an obstructed bladder, whether that is due to urethral plug or uroliths, and plain cystitis whether that is due an infection, irritation by crystals/stones or FIC.

[/quote]

Obstructed bladder is a given.

Easy to distinguish between uroliths and an urethral plug containing crystals.

Plain "cystitis" is a given, following the obvious extreme distention of an obstruction, as we have just seen.

"Infection" is the hard one, because I've never seen it proven; bacteria in the urine, sure, but actually the cause, doubt it, if so Koch would be very grumpy.

Crystals or stones are easy 'cos you can see them.

"FIC" was my point; any "irritation" in any way will look like the picture and could be described as an irritative cystitis, and this is what, I contend, is what FIC is.

I know this is considered baloney but why are "anti-stress" diets conveniently "anti crystal"?

Why, also, are anti-crystal measures [water-consumption etc] always advised together with anti-stress measures?

Pity we didn't get some histo of the punctured bladder.

PS I know this is turbo posting but when the same subject comes up, again and again, and the same contentious [IMHO] answers and theories are trotted out, and swallowed by intelligent vets, I can't help but reply.

If it's "stress" why change the diet and give more water?

Try that in your human psychiatric hospitals.....

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 13:50:23 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Please tell me how, exactly, also please tell me the organism responsible for the "infection" and don't just say "because it was in the urine"....[/quote]I really am defeated by the ambiguity (and that is a polite word) of this question.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 13:35:15 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] the rest of us are able to distinguish between an obstructed bladder, whether that is due to urethral plug or uroliths, and plain cystitis whether that is due an infection, irritation by crystals/stones or FIC.[/quote]

Please tell me how, exactly, also please tell me the organism responsible for the "infection" and don't just say "because it was in the urine"....

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 13:32:20 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I don't think it allows any comment to be made on the underlying cause, the inflammation caused by over-stretching the bladder for some time would probably be enough to cause the changes seen in the photo.[/quote]

My point exactly!!

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 12:26:47 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

I thought they looked like that because of "stress" causing the mysterious "interstitial cystitis".....[sarcasm]

It sort of destroys the "interstitial" cystitis theory, in that I doubt if the protagonists have ever seen a post-obstruction bladder and the state it is in.

[/quote]You really are incorrigible at times Tony, your sarcasm aside. Whether you believe interstitial cystitis is the work of fairies or not, the rest of us are able to distinguish between an obstructed bladder, whether that is due to urethral plug or uroliths, and plain cystitis whether that is due an infection, irritation by crystals/stones or FIC.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:39:14 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

PS It's not often that you see a bladder post obstruction. I think it's the only photo I've ever seen, and the only bladder!!

It sort of destroys the "interstitial" cystitis theory, in that I doubt if the protagonists have ever seen a post-obstruction bladder and the state it is in.

[/quote]

I don't think it allows any comment to be made on the underlying cause, the inflammation caused by over-stretching the bladder for some time would probably be enough to cause the changes seen in the photo.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Anthony Todd — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 10:27:56 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I suspect most bladders would look like that post obstruction if we opened up and had a look.[/quote]

I thought they looked like that because of "stress" causing the mysterious "interstitial cystitis".....[sarcasm]

PS It's not often that you see a bladder post obstruction. I think it's the only photo I've ever seen, and the only bladder!!

It sort of destroys the "interstitial" cystitis theory, in that I doubt if the protagonists have ever seen a post-obstruction bladder and the state it is in.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Edward Jones — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 10:23:10 GMT

I prefer Tom Tiddlers to Slippery Sams, but certainly the newer cat catheters are much better than the old.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 10:15:03 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]I flushed the abdomen surgically and found the bladder to be about 3cm diameter and as purple as an over-ripe cherry[/quote]I suspect most bladders would look like that post obstruction if we opened up and had a look. The puncture wound would heal very rapidly as is obvious otherwise every cystotomy would leak post surgery. The jury is out on whether cystocentesis is wise in a very distended bladder. It is not something I would do unless I could not pass a catheter and was just buying time before performing a urethrectomy or marsupialisation. Since I discovered Slippery Sams and performed retro-propulsion I have not failed to catheterise a cat.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 08:32:28 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]Going back, my recollection is that a fair proportion, perhpas 30%?, of blocked cats (as in large bladder on palpation and history of sitting in litter tray and pasing nothing to very little) responded to acp+midazolam on presentation, then being left in a cage with litter tray (watch not edible litter!) prior to resorting to passing catheter. I'd assumed (possibly wrongly) that the muslce relaxant effects of the sedatives might have a part to play in this. I still do this, but give buprenorphine as well now. [/quote]

I've noticed this as well, and if they are fairly bright and well in themselves other than the inability to urinate I will usually give them ACP and Vetergesic (and might now consider adding in midazolam as well), and leave them in a quiet cage with a litter tray for half an hour to see if they will urinate before proceeding to a GA to pass a catheter.

RE: Dantrium in blocked cats

Edward Jones — Sat, 23 Dec 2017 11:20:44 GMT

I had an 'interesting' incident with this blocked cat - on presentation it was in considerable distress with a very distended bladder. I'm single handed and had a couple of appointments left so I wasn't able to attend to it immediately, so I decided to cysto it on admission - something I don't usually do.

The bladder came off the needle and proceeded to empty itself entirely into the peritoneum. A relieved bladder but a cat in just as much, possibly more, pain than before. I flushed the abdomen surgically and found the bladder to be about 3cm diameter and as purple as an over-ripe cherry - if it was bowel you'd consider resection. It was holding pressure at this stage and I couldn't find the puncture so closed up.

Just do a cysto, they said. It'll provide immediate relief, they said...