French Bulldog C-sections

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Clive Ansell — Sat, 06 Jan 2018 08:11:21 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]A cesarian is an emergency...[/quote]

A routine emergency.

[/quote]

A pre planned elective emergency even!

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

bevs2251 — Sat, 06 Jan 2018 01:52:40 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]On hearing the news he picked the dog up and ran out of the practice as fast as his little legs could carry him . [/quote]

Did he pay for the consult and scan before he ran out ?

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 13:12:43 GMT

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]A cesarian is an emergency...[/quote]

A routine emergency.

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

grumpyoldman — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 11:15:45 GMT

My funniest experience with one of these cretins was at 2am. A new client "Mr Esposito" was the name he gave presented for an FBD bitch whelping as an emergency because she was not doing anything etc. A friend had scanned it and he had all the dates of matings . I could not feel anything in it , scanned it and sure enough it was empty and having a pseudopregnancy . On hearing the news he picked the dog up and ran out of the practice as fast as his little legs could carry him . He got quite angry when I started to investigate and wanted me to just get on with the surgery "your just running the "f***in bill up were his initial thoughts" . Beware of people with shaven heads no neck and lots of tattoos who normally go to the PDSA the term pond life is very unfair to Algae. So yes I would definitely rather load the dishwasher than waste my time and money on this type of shite.

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Chris Milligan — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 05:43:14 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]I feel some people are at risk of confusing the routine with heroics and the mundane with emergency.[/quote]

A cesarian is an emergency...

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

ih220 — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 17:50:12 GMT

I had a true elective Caesarean in the summer (due to previous emergency section plus current breech baby) - done at almost 38 weeks before any signs of labour. I was given steroid injections for the two days prior to the chosen date in order to ensure lung maturity in the baby. I can assure you it was not a trivial op to recover from and this was without a GA (spinal anaesthetic) and with pre-emptive analgesia and hefty post-op analgesia. (Ibuprofen plus paracetamol). I had a 'good' recovery with both this and the previous section - out of hospital the next day - but it was still not an experience I would wish on anyone. Though obviously better than the alternative of likely emergency section/dystocia with breech baby.

I imagine there are differences involved due to the transverse incision commonly used in humans and the upright posture of humans plus the need to attend to older children shortly after the op, but I still wouldn't want to underestimate the impact of it in dogs.

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Julie Innes — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 17:03:53 GMT

Actually I also love C-sections- they are far and away my favourite op. Unfortunately (fortunately??) I'm not very nice to breeders, and I very strongly discourage my clients from breeding their pet bitches.

Its just as well so many people don't listen to me!...

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 22:54:36 GMT

Michael you can iron. , it is just an undiscovered talent you have been neglecting

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 22:34:22 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]That is a bit like saying I like washing the dishes or doing the ironing. [/quote]

I can't iron, but do get a perverse pleasure out of loading the dishwasher very neatly..........

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

grumpyoldman — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 22:12:12 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I love a caeser.[/quote]

That is a bit like saying I like washing the dishes or doing the ironing.

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

David Mills — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 23:58:26 GMT

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]Depends what result you're looking for surely. There's more to success than having your patient leave the hospital.[/quote]

What result are you looking for?

Do you insist the nurse doesn't leave the stable animal under GA at any point to tend to the pups? Do you think this is influenced by your statement previously that every animal under GA is in a critical condition?

Having worked in charity practice for many years, and done many Caesars (at least 150), I've seen one ruptured uterus. Pup survived, 5 mins flushing, no difference in outcome.

I feel some people are at risk of confusing the routine with heroics and the mundane with emergency.

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Chris Milligan — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 23:31:37 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]Hm, is this true?[/quote]

Where we are yes - breeders tend to stick with their general practice vet and have their numbers for out of hours services

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]I don't know, isn't the level of care judged based on results rather than on the number of staff involved? [/quote]

Depends what result you're looking for surely. There's more to success than having your patient leave the hospital.

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]Always, without exception? So are you saying that every caesarian you have seen is the consequence of lack of information [/quote]

Definitely - to be clear I am disgusted by the ignorance within and surrounding the dog breeding industry in all its forms at present. In its present form that industry should, I think, be directly targeted by the veterinary profession as a major source of animal welfare compromise and suffering. Thankfully the British profession has made immense strides in this in recent years and is at least talking about the issue, North America much less so at present. I'm not talking about the situation often brought up by someone breeding pugs for $many, wrong as I believe this is. I'm talking about people benignly buying a labrador as a family pet that inevitably has skin and joint problems, and the many, many other similar issues with countless other breeds. People breeding these dogs are cashing in, and as soon as there's a problem (shunts, crippling dysplasia etc. etc.) they back out or suddenly become unavailable.

No-one is breeding mongrels for token money. There are more than enough lovely dogs languishing in shelters, and I do not understand the need to maintain an industry that indulges in eugenics so that people can enjoy their get-rich-quick scheme.

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]each one of your clients complained about the procedure? [/quote]

Where did I say this?

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 22:55:11 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]An OOH caesarian takes one vet and a nurse where I work and everyone is going home in an hour, maybe 2 if the bitch takes long to recover. Which part is actually more labour intensive than a GDV? [/quote]

Last caeser I did was me and SVN. Came in at 5pm, whelping, straining, puppies alive on u/s. Decided to operate. Luckily 2 more members of staff came back to the practice as we were starting. Think she had about 12 puppies, all alive. Bitch walked out and we'd cleaned everything by 6.20. Owner went home with a box of wriggling puppies and a pot of Whelpie.

Would have taken less time if fewer puppies. Two of us could have managed.

If problems (such as rupture, dead pups) then it's as quick to spay than suture uterus.

I love a caeser.

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 22:15:34 GMT

I'm really sorry for continuing on this subject, I'm not having a go at you but I still don't get it.

I have very rarely seen a non straight forward caesarian, true, I don't do many theses days but I did quite a few. Uterus split open means 5 extra minutes and spay the bitch at the same time. Wrecked pelvis? How wrecked? Fractured? Is that an emergency to repair at the same time?

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]we get the difficult ones - owners much prefer to go to their regular vet if they can avoid the emergency hospital[/quote]

Hm, is this true? Caesarians are really not referred and most likely you get to see those who are not registered with a vet at all or their vet doesn't have an on call. I can't see how you would see worse caesarians than anybody else, you just get what you get.

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]Also I've found it's not a great level of care when you have a surgeon in theatre, a nurse monitoring the anaesthetic and....who else to do the puppies that can't breathe?[/quote]

I don't know, isn't the level of care judged based on results rather than on the number of staff involved?

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]As usual the breeders are always, without exception, utterly clueless about what they are doing and are rarely aware of their financial or moral obligations to the mess they and they alone have created. They are the biggest source of anxiety amongst my team for the allegations and discredit that come, sometimes months after the event, for the slightest reasons even though, at the end of the day, you have helped the client.[/quote]

Always, without exception? So are you saying that every caesarian you have seen is the consequence of lack of information and each one of your clients complained about the procedure?

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Chris Milligan — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 21:09:44 GMT

when they're not straight forward. when puppies need more intensive care. when they've been straining for 8 hours plus and split their uterus open. when the owner had a go at removing a stuck puppy themselves and wrecked the pelvis.

Also I've found it's not a great level of care when you have a surgeon in theatre, a nurse monitoring the anaesthetic and....who else to do the puppies that can't breathe?

we get the difficult ones - owners much prefer to go to their regular vet if they can avoid the emergency hospital

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 19:56:29 GMT

[quote user="Chris Milligan"] A GDV, hospitalisation for several days if they have cardiac complications is actually less labour intensive and they come in at over $4k usually.[/quote]

Wow. An OOH caesarian takes one vet and a nurse where I work and everyone is going home in an hour, maybe 2 if the bitch takes long to recover. Which part is actually more labour intensive than a GDV?

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Chris Milligan — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 18:49:39 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]Ours are currently around £800 I think that is probably too cheap for all the potential hassle. [/quote]

Ours come in at between $2500 and $4000 depending on the effort involved. We are 24-hr emergency, but for the amount of hassle I think it's actually very fair. A GDV, hospitalisation for several days if they have cardiac complications is actually less labour intensive and they come in at over $4k usually.

As usual the breeders are always, without exception, utterly clueless about what they are doing and are rarely aware of their financial or moral obligations to the mess they and they alone have created. They are the biggest source of anxiety amongst my team for the allegations and discredit that come, sometimes months after the event, for the slightest reasons even though, at the end of the day, you have helped the client. And they expect a breeder's discount for your trouble! Outrageous.

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Julie Innes — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 08:48:23 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I did do a C-section in a Frenchie a couple of weeks ago.[/quote]

Even if they did not have the pedigree or documents to hand did you fill in the KC form?

Squeaky wheel and all that.....

[/quote]

I'm not sure she was KC registered, to be honest. The owners had no idea she was pregnant, and I spayed her at the same time. What is the alternative- leave the bitch to die?

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

grumpyoldman — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 22:31:32 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]It's pretty straightforward surgery.[/quote]

That is true most of the time.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] Consumable and fixed cost etc similar to a bitch spay. [/quote] Depends what your paying your staff and what your reinvestment strategy is ?

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Maybe I do want some Frencie breeders and I could drive a bigger car and have a bigger house......[/quote]

Be my guest. you will get those from the patellas, cherry eyes, screw tails and BOAS surgeries not the C/sections.

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

David Mills — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 20:52:28 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="David Mills"]What incontrovertible evidence is this old fruit[/quote]

This isn't a forum for greengrocers, *ock, so don't add "old fruit" to a sensible challenge!

It even *isses me off..... and adds ZERO to the discussion.

May even diminish the value of your contributions? [and yourself?]

[/quote]

Would you prefer tiresome old chatterer?

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 19:52:42 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]Some practices charge as little as £450 while with Vetsnow the sky is the limit. Ours are currently around £800 I think that is probably too cheap for all the potential hassle. [/quote]

I suppose with rads, oxygen tent then I could get the bill up to ~£450 but never £800. It's pretty straightforward surgery. Consumable and fixed cost etc similar to a bitch spay. Bit of mess to clean up but I keep saying I love doing them.

I don't see how it can be an £800 op if you charge £200 for a spay. Maybe I do want some Frencie breeders and I could drive a bigger car and have a bigger house......

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Rob Loxley — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 18:59:20 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]How about the BVA publishing a list of breeds and their likelihood of common serious generic or breed specific problems?[/quote]

You could start with https://www.vet.cam.ac.uk/idid

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Rob Loxley — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 18:56:04 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I don't agree to that, pointing out that even if their dates are spot on, the bitch can actually become pregnant days after the actual mating, so the pups may well be premature [/quote]

Beyond the ethics of 'elective C-sections in brachycephalics', if you can time the LH surge you can predict parturition to within a day, so if you've done progesterone testing pre-mating you can be pretty near. You can also check progesterone has fallen to check you're not too early with a c/section.
There are also reports of aglepristone prior to term then c/section the next day, but you're really back on the ethics question.

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Anthony Todd — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 18:47:52 GMT

PS How about the BVA publishing a list of breeds and their likelihood of common serious generic or breed specific problems?

RE: French Bulldog C-sections

Anthony Todd — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 18:06:42 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I did do a C-section in a Frenchie a couple of weeks ago.[/quote]

Even if they did not have the pedigree or documents to hand did you fill in the KC form?

Squeaky wheel and all that.....