Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:16:25 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I have just been challenged by a charity upset that it took 15 minutes surgery time to remove two retained testicles!

Should we be getting the RCVS to inform us how long procedures are allowed to take?

[/quote]Well first I'd tell the charity to take a hike and if they don't like your fees go elsewhere. The procedure is as long as it takes me I don't think the RCVS can help with that!!

[quote user="Anthony Todd"] change the narrative to "bilateral cryptorchidectomy"[/quote]That's the second sensible suggestion you've made in a week Tony.

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Anthony Todd — Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:03:55 GMT

Try putting "retained" in CAPITALS and BOLD.

Nah, better, change the narrative to "bilateral cryptorchidectomy"; sounds so much more complicated, so make sure the fee is increased.....

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Bob Russell — Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:14:56 GMT

I have just been challenged by a charity upset that it took 15 minutes surgery time to remove two retained testicles!

Should we be getting the RCVS to inform us how long procedures are allowed to take?

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

bevs2251 — Mon, 15 Jan 2018 23:17:32 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Look how a bit of an ovary or parathyroid gland can seemingly get a blood supply from nowhere, I'd not be leaving a testicle in the canal tied off. Ask VDS and see what they say. It's really not that difficult removing them, even from the inguinal canal.[/quote]

Do tend to agree. I'd always look for the remnant. May definitely not die off and then become hormonally active or even neoplastic. Before I graduated, vets in Australia used to leave a little bit of ovary behind in female dogs, implanted in the fat, to try to avoid hormonal incontinence in later years ! Not something that's done these days !! Have seen a retained ovary in a ferret turn neoplastic after 12 months and 3 attempts to find it, so likely retained ovaries/ovarian remnants in cats and dogs could go the same way.

Can't see how one could mistake a prostate, or a kidney, for a testicle but it has been done. A colleague of mine says he's seen all sorts of cryptorchid complications as he does a lot of welfare desexings. Says he's come across retained testicles stuck to the bladder, others right at the inguinal canal (difficult to remove in a large dog) but luckily has never taken out a prostate.

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 15 Jan 2018 11:57:10 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]

Cryptorchid surgery is one of those ops that, superficially, sounds like it should be easy (easier than a bitch spay, perhaps). But really, they have a lot of potential for difficulty.

I've never received any teaching on them.

[/quote]

I love cryptorchid castrates. Adds some challenge. I will do more of them in a year than normal castrates. After the prostate 'disaster' on here I've deliberately looked at a few prostates and they don't have the same distinctive vas and pampiniform plexus so I don't see how you'd remove one of them in error.

There is at least one study that showed many Burdizzo'd calves still retain some testosterone production. I suspect this is why farmers like it, with the main effect being inability to impregnate sisters. Look how a bit of an ovary or parathyroid gland can seemingly get a blood supply from nowhere, I'd not be leaving a testicle in the canal tied off. Ask VDS and see what they say. It's really not that difficult removing them, even from the inguinal canal.

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

vs0u — Mon, 15 Jan 2018 10:46:50 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

[quote user="vs0u"]I heard of an accidental nephrectomy. First vet castrated descended testicle then looked for retained testicle and couldn't find it. Following week second vet reopened cat and removed kidney thinking it was testicle. Cat came back a day later in acute renal failure. Not sure whether it was then referred or sent for PM following PTS. Anyway apparently it only ever had one testicle and one kidney, the other side not having developed[/quote]

That's awful but a case of there but for the grace etc... I've never done that but am sure some of my mistakes were horrifying! Enough said!

[/quote]

Yes - my thoughts exactly. I'd rather hear about these things second hand than do them myself!

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 15 Jan 2018 10:37:31 GMT

[quote user="bevs2251"]A colleague of mine with these tiny inguinal testicle kitties would locate the vessels abdominally and tie these off. He didn't bother searching for the remnant testicle/gubernaculum as he posited that the lack of blood supply would cause any remnant to necrose. Never any blow-back. He'd been in practice for 40+ years and done many, many cat castrates and charity work cases.[/quote]

Burdizzos work well for castrating young bullocks so no reason why tying off the blood vessel in cats shouldn't have the same effect.

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Julian Earl — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 22:48:06 GMT

[quote user="Elivet"]I heard of an accidental nephrectomy. First vet castrated descended testicle then looked for retained testicle and couldn't find it. Following week second vet reopened cat and removed kidney thinking it was testicle. Cat came back a day later in acute renal failure. Not sure whether it was then referred or sent for PM following PTS. Anyway apparently it only ever had one testicle and one kidney, the other side not having developed[/quote]

That's awful but a case of there but for the grace etc... I've never done that but am sure some of my mistakes were horrifying! Enough said!

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Elivet — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:42:05 GMT

[quote user="vs0u "]

I heard of an accidental nephrectomy. First vet castrated descended testicle then looked for retained testicle and couldn't find it. Following week second vet reopened cat and removed kidney thinking it was testicle. Cat came back a day later in acute renal failure. Not sure whether it was then referred or sent for PM following PTS. Anyway apparently it only ever had one testicle and one kidney, the other side not having developed.

[/quote]

Oh no!

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Anthony Todd — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 16:36:08 GMT

I've removed a mesenteric lymph node, suspecting it was an undeveloped testicle, and sent it off for histo to be confirmed, and signed the request form with my own name...........

MA will be reassured, and confirmed, I'm sure........

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

vs0u — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 14:49:13 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]

Cryptorchid surgery is one of those ops that, superficially, sounds like it should be easy (easier than a bitch spay, perhaps). But really, they have a lot of potential for difficulty.

I've never received any teaching on them. A couple of years ago there was an interesting account on this forum of an accidental prostatectomy

[/quote]

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Edward Jones — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 11:38:10 GMT

Cryptorchid surgery is one of those ops that, superficially, sounds like it should be easy (easier than a bitch spay, perhaps). But really, they have a lot of potential for difficulty.

I've never received any teaching on them. A couple of years ago there was an interesting account on this forum of an accidental prostatectomy, which required fixing of the urethra. Most here were a bit incredulous but it's apparently a recognised complication, and the account certainly helped open my eyes more to the potential problems.

Because crytorchids can present in all shapes and forms, and there's little literature on them, and unless university teaching of them has improved recently, accounts of personal experiences are invaluable.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="bevs2251"]A colleague of mine with these tiny inguinal testicle kitties would locate the vessels abdominally and tie these off. He didn't bother searching for the remnant testicle/gubernaculum as he posited that the lack of blood supply would cause any remnant to necrose.[/quote]Sounds like another brilliant idea. At least if it it did necrose you'd be led to it by an area of pain and inflammation![/quote]

It sounds okay, but I'd be a bit anxious to tie something off without being absolutely certain there's a testis (by visualising it) at the other end.

As an aside, the gubernaculum is the bit broken down when doing an open castrate, isn't it?

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Anthony Todd — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 09:37:04 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]This could be the first useful thing you've ever posted Tony!![/quote]

Makes me feel as if Donald Trump has asked me to the White House only much more excited.

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 09:06:07 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]...if you pull the scrotum the gubernaculum tenses in the abdomen and you can see or feel this which guides you to the testicle if any.[/quote]This could be the first useful thing you've ever posted Tony!!

[quote user="bevs2251"]A colleague of mine with these tiny inguinal testicle kitties would locate the vessels abdominally and tie these off. He didn't bother searching for the remnant testicle/gubernaculum as he posited that the lack of blood supply would cause any remnant to necrose.[/quote]Sounds like another brilliant idea. At least if it it did necrose you'd be led to it by an area of pain and inflammation!

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

bevs2251 — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 02:23:32 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

If you can't find the other testicle pull the descended one and explore the opposite area in the abdomen.

Always look for the undescended one first using the obvious one as a guide.

[/quote]

Had this very situation a couple of weeks ago with cryptorchid dog. Always remove descended testicle last. Nothing obvious in contralateral inguinal canal. Opened abdomen - unable to locate retained testicle. Located testicular vessels near bladder. One vet pulled on these while the other extended the skin incision over the inguinal area. Dissected quite deep in fat here to find testicle from guidance via tensing the vessels from abdominal side. Was not palpably obvious. Removed. All sewn up and other testicle removed. All fine. Seen a few days ago for S/O.

A colleague of mine with these tiny inguinal testicle kitties would locate the vessels abdominally and tie these off. He didn't bother searching for the remnant testicle/gubernaculum as he posited that the lack of blood supply would cause any remnant to necrose. Never any blow-back. He'd been in practice for 40+ years and done many, many cat castrates and charity work cases.

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 22:03:13 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Always look for the undescended one first using the obvious one as a guide.[/quote]

Excellent tip.

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Anthony Todd — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 18:58:56 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]The gubernaculum is the embryonic fibrous structure that guides the testis into the scrotum, there will usually be a vestigial testis as well.[/quote]

Not even wanting to teach my great grand father anything but, as he has hinted, if you pull the scrotum the gubernaculum tenses in the abdomen and you can see or feel this which guides you to the testicle if any.

May have to lift the drape to watch for the external inguinal area moving or not....

If you can't find the other testicle pull the descended one and explore the opposite area in the abdomen.

Always look for the undescended one first using the obvious one as a guide.

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 16:07:29 GMT

[quote user="bevs2251"]Found a very small testicle in the inguinal canal in one, and a vestigial remnant in the inguinal canal in the other after much searching inside the abdomen and inguinal canal. T[/quote]Not wishing to teach granny how to suck eggs but the key is to find the vas and associated blood vessel at the neck of the bladder and follow it. If the testis is in the abdomen you will then trace it easily. If the vas disappears into the inguinal canal then you will find the testis inguinally. However these tiny vestigial testes can be very challenging: one we had a few weeks ago that was half normal size was very difficult to find with palpation in the inguinal fat even after ultrasound.

The gubernaculum is the embryonic fibrous structure that guides the testis into the scrotum, there will usually be a vestigial testis as well.

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Iain Richards — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 07:14:13 GMT

[quote user="bevs2251"]I have also operated on a couple of "one testicle" kitties. Found a very small testicle in the inguinal canal in one, and a vestigial remnant in the inguinal canal in the other after much searching inside the abdomen and inguinal canal. This remnant is called a gubernaculum (great word !). That cat happened to be one I castrated when I was in the UK - maybe higher incidence of this there ? [/quote]

Only in politics is there more bollocks than the rest of the civilised world

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

bevs2251 — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 03:35:40 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]And a couple where only one testicle could ever be found, despite more than one colleague getting involved!![/quote]

Thanks, Arlo, another poster also advised me how to do the quote box so I think I have the hang of it now.

I have also operated on a couple of "one testicle" kitties. Found a very small testicle in the inguinal canal in one, and a vestigial remnant in the inguinal canal in the other after much searching inside the abdomen and inguinal canal. This remnant is called a gubernaculum (great word !). That cat happened to be one I castrated when I was in the UK - maybe higher incidence of this there ?

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Carl Gorman — Wed, 10 Jan 2018 09:36:10 GMT

The very first cat spay I did as a student in my foster practice only had one horn. I remember feeling hopeless trying to find a uterus. The vet took over. Still no joy. Closed flank, opened up midline - only the right horn was present.

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Rob Davis — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 15:43:17 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"] I use them in difficult ortho ops, and leg amputations (not long ops, just usually a big hole)[/quote]

There is some evidence of increased wound infections using staples vs sutures in people following orthopaedic surgery. I'm not sure whether this has been demonstrated in animals too - anybody else know?

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Julian Earl — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 09:45:21 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] But have you ever had a dog with 3 testes? - I have![/quote]

Me too! Or should that be me three? Not very large but clearly a testicle.

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 09:19:46 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]And a couple where only one testicle could ever be found, despite more than one colleague getting involved!![/quote]I've had a few of those especially in cats, it is usually there but is a vestige. But have you ever had a dog with 3 testes? - I have!

RE: Cat spaying in less than 30 minutes

Julie Innes — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 09:07:42 GMT

I've never had a cat spay where there was only 1 horn visible, but I have a feeling that after reading this today will be the day!!

I have had some greyhounds with very strange reproductive anatomy- one with a retained testicle on one side and a uterine horn and ovary on the other! And a couple where only one testicle could ever be found, despite more than one colleague getting involved!!