How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:21:39 GMT

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:20:43 GMT

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:19:11 GMT

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:15:43 GMT

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:14:58 GMT

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:14:06 GMT

I seem to be able to upload one at a time, so bear with me

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:10:09 GMT

Pictures

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

janine redman — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 14:16:26 GMT

And mad cow disease!

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 13:48:58 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]Both our young vets had never actually heard of it. I did say once seen never forgotten. I’m from the era of 3-4 a week as a new grad! [/quote]I can do better than that, I saw some of the first FIV cases and the start of the first CPV epidemic. Went through the feline dysautonomia 'epidemic', it finished as abruptly as it started, and had a cat that survived 10 years with it and only then died because the children's nanny ran her over. Cats didn't have heart disease, hyperthyroidism or OA in those days either.

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Joyce Whitehead — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 13:39:59 GMT

The one we have in is owned by a lady who had a horse with grass sickness last year. Does make you ponder...

our last dysautonomia was about 3 years ago I think. Both our young vets had never actually heard of it. I did say once seen never forgotten. I’m from the era of 3-4 a week as a new grad!

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 10:33:13 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Purina quietly changed the composition of their cat food.[/quote]

Tell that to a friend of ours who diagnosed 3 cases this year

Neil

PS I'll try and get more details

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 08:48:42 GMT

[quote user="janine redman"]And what happened to all those cats with Key-Gaskell syndrome ??[/quote]Purina quietly changed the composition of their cat food.

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Joyce Whitehead — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 08:45:14 GMT

[quote user="janine redman"]

And what happened to all those cats with Key-Gaskell syndrome ??

[/quote]

We have one in our kennels as we speak...

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

janine redman — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 02:06:59 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]We have seen no further cases since that first year so at a bit of a loss why! [/quote]

Interesting if you haven't seen similar cases since that first year. Especially as we saw only a couple of suspect cases last year and none so far this year. Whereas the first year we were seeing suspect cases almost weekly and wondered if owners were just paranoid . But owners are just as concerned about it now but no affected dogs being presented. Though there are still lots of clients who no longer walk on the open forest because they are fearful of " catching " it. There are still hundreds of dogs walking daily on the forest and no current problems . Has it "gone" from the region , are the current population of dogs now immune ?

And what happened to all those cats with Key-Gaskell syndrome ??

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

janine redman — Tue, 05 Dec 2017 02:00:58 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Am I missing out? I wonder how many necrotic limb lesions accompanied by systemic disease are Adder bites?[/quote]

We work n the New Forest where adder bites are common. It was my first thought when the lesions started to occur. But the history was not suggestive , there was no swelling or initial depression or pain . They do no present anything like adder bites. Some sort of insect bites were considered but many lesions were interdigital and or multiple and only occurred in wet and cold weather .

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 16:37:30 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The symptoms are so unspecific that I don't think any vet should be in the firing range for missing an early case. Do you harp on about it and frighten clients to death for several days or play it down as a small risk? I go for the latter.[/quote]I've never even come close to diagnosing it, or Seasonal Canine Illness for that matter and being on the edge of leafy Bucks we are close to largish forested areas: Burnham Beeches, Pinewood and Langley Park and numerous other smaller wooded areas where folk regularly walk their dogs. Am I missing out? I wonder how many necrotic limb lesions accompanied by systemic disease are Adder bites?

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Bob Russell — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 14:06:08 GMT

We had a couple of cases, the first just before the story broke!

i don't try to diagnose them as I am not sure you really can without a biopsy.

We have seen no further cases since that first year so at a bit of a loss why!

Any lesions that are suspicious should be more a case of managing the owners expectations. I do mention Alabama rot as a possibility but make it clear that this is extremely unlikely statistically.

I suspect more cases are provisionally diagnosed as we become more aware of the condition.

Not much seems to alter the progress of the disease so monitoring an apparently healthy patient seems to make little sense to me. If it has the disease and is going to progress to renal symptoms it will happen very quickly and that will be obvious enough.

Take home message delivered either gently or tongue in cheek is that the dog with a sore foot is very, very unlikely to be Alabama Rot but if it is then it is likely to be stuffed.

Obviously with the non-progressive skin lesion form we will not be any the wiser as the dog recovers.

The symptoms are so unspecific that I don't think any vet should be in the firing range for missing an early case. Do you harp on about it and frighten clients to death for several days or play it down as a small risk? I go for the latter.

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 13:32:22 GMT

[quote user="janine redman"]i have a number of photos of affected dogs but not sure how to upload them[/quote]

JPEG them then upload them by clicking the photo + icon on the bottom two left of word

It's a fascinating question as aside renal failure, skin lesions, how do they present? Has Anderson Moore documented the list of signs and percentages?

It may be hype and the cases low, but I'm not sure I'd like to be the vet in the firing line if I missed a case

Neil

PS If you E Mail Neil@tandem-club.org.uk, I can photoshop them and upload the images

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

janine redman — Sun, 03 Dec 2017 22:52:54 GMT

i work in the heart of the New Forest . that first year it appeared we had dogs almost weekly with odd lesions on their feet and skin. Ulcers often with a central dark necrotic area. we got into the habit of urine samples for proteinuria and a check for renal dysfunction . We had a range of disease presentation. FRom mild red sores and no changes on bloods and urine, through to life threatening kidney failure and extensive ulcerative changes over the complete limb of a pug. ( who is still alive three years later with persistent renal dysfunction, extensive scars , but happy on her renal diet.

i would say be suspicious of any odd skin lesions . For that year and the one following we saw lots of dogs with strange skin lesions but because most did not progress to kidney failure they were not diagnosed as " Alabama Rot". We worked closely with Anderson Referrals and they took the worst affected cases .

What is fascinating is that we had a handful of cases the following year and then one or two last year but the plethora of odd skin lesions in our dog population has not been repeated . Has our loca canine population developed immunity?

i have a number of photos of affected dogs but not sure how to upload them

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Judith Archbold — Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:45:30 GMT

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Miriam Lodewyks — Sun, 03 Dec 2017 12:48:37 GMT

"a diagnosis of convenience and mass hysteria"

I'm with Martin on this one. Remember this: if it's on the News... by definition it's got to be a rare occurrence.

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 19:19:52 GMT

Hopefully Bob Russell will be along as he's in the New Forest

Skin Lesion with pain

If the two together and skin lesion on the legs that's the warning signs

Neil

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 18:43:17 GMT

I suspect that this is, like Seasonal Canine Illness, a diagnosis of convenience and mass hysteria and in many cases other illnesses have been bundled into neat explainable package, and wonder if it really exists as a separate entity. I would be interested to know what post mortem signs are diagnostic and which could be attributed to more than one condition occurring simultaneously with someone putting 2 and 2 together and making 5. Remember 'Gundog Collapse Syndrome' - well that was just dogs getting hypoglycaemic because they'd run round for hours without eating like the hunger knock in endurance athletes and seems to have been forgotten about but because it got into the mass media every individual case which would have been ignored was suddenly part of a 'syndrome'.

RE: How do I diagnose a living dog with Alabama rot?

emma o'connor — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 16:39:02 GMT

I was working down in the New Forest in 2012 when the first reported cases were seen. We saw a lot of panicked owners presenting dogs with sores and to be honest we did a lot of blood testing at presentation and again a few days later to try and pick up any in renal decline. We avoided nsaids in our symptomatic treatment plans. No one wanted to be known as the vet who missed the disease.....

Anderson Moores were local to us and really helpful with advice, they still have plenty of information available on their website for both vets and owners who suspect they may have a case. David Walker who works there is one of the vets continuing to investigate the condition.