Cambridge grads and EBVM...

RE: Cambridge grads and EBVM...

Anthony Todd — Sat, 11 Nov 2017 13:48:52 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]book remains the first and most comprehensive on the subject[/quote]

Does Experience Based Veterinary Medicine get a mention?

RE: Cambridge grads and EBVM...

David Mills — Sat, 11 Nov 2017 12:30:39 GMT

I think he was having a poorly disguised and inelegantly shrouded pop at David William's, nothing more.

However.

Cambridge were the first to introduce EBVM into their course based on the work of Holmes and Cockcroft, whose book remains the first and most comprehensive on the subject.

EBVM sits poorly with the high priests of referral practice. One of the most enjoyable parts of BSAVA each year is where a sermon is challenged from the floor and a tetchy argument ensues which generally takes the form of "even though you've seen hundreds more cases of this I'm a specialist and therefore right".

The history of veterinary medicine is littered with self interested evidence publication. From my area, Atkins on the use of ACEis to prevent chf in mmvd, and the work on spironolactone by the French group.

The referral centres are rarely innocent purveyors of truth. The TPLO vs TTA debate remains somewhat comical.

It's depressing as it is a failure of logical thinking. This is no means tarring all with the same brush, as many are excellent, truthful and straight up honest about the evidence or lack of it for their recommendations. With specialisation comes great responsibility, something some specialists would do well to remember.

RE: Cambridge grads and EBVM...

grumpyoldman — Sat, 11 Nov 2017 11:11:38 GMT

Remend-gate was of course a perfect storm;-

There was one basic floored assumption in the marketing, that was that new grads knew what a melt looked like.You can blame woefully inadequate teaching in some institutions for that.

The second factor was managed corporate practices worshipping at the alter of the cascade while not providing their new graduates with adequate experienced support. No one to tell them what to do and nothing to treat them with. Combined with pressure to turn over . So we had consult + isathal , followed by consult + clinagel followed by consult + remend which was in a really tiny packet and very expensive , so it must be good and the rep said it was a liquid contact lens etc etc etc. Then up pops the descmetocoele followed by very late referral and grumpy diploma holding ophthalmologist who does their best but does not have a magic wand.

I think that New Grads from Cambridge Bristol and Nottingham have all been fine, not had one from Liverpool recently , both RVC new grads had problems with basic knowledge and zero practical ability but maybe I was just unlucky.

RE: Cambridge grads and EBVM...

Victoria Poole — Sat, 11 Nov 2017 01:20:48 GMT

[quote user="Robert Lowe"]

I was trying to be polite while being specific about ophthalmology. Now I have dug a bigger hole

[/quote]

You certainly have. Having sat through lectures on EBVM at Cambridge from the authors of the 2003 textbook on the subject, (still referenced on the RCVS website under the section on evidence based medicine for anyone who fancies a bit of further reading) I can assure you that Cambridge grads have a fine background in EBVM.

Onwards and upwards with the endless debate regarding ocular lubricants. Incidentally, my nan prefers Viscotears for her dry eye.....

RE: Cambridge grads and EBVM...

Robert Lowe — Fri, 10 Nov 2017 15:50:53 GMT

I was trying to be polite while being specific about ophthalmology. Now I have dug a bigger hole

RE: Cambridge grads and EBVM...

An On MRCVS — Fri, 10 Nov 2017 13:37:35 GMT

Rob may correct us but I think his comment was specifically about the teaching of ophthalmology rather than teaching at Cambridge in general.

If it was a broader comment then I would like to see this clarified as it is certainly not consistent with my experience.

RE: Cambridge grads and EBVM...

Rob Loxley — Fri, 10 Nov 2017 13:33:18 GMT

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]

Very interesting aside! I qualified from London and it’s a long time since I worked with a Cambridge graduate who qualified this side of the millennium, but I can remember as an A-level student being advised not to bother applying as vet employers would expect me to have poor practical skills.

Is this still true? Any Cambridge grads want to speak up on their EBVM teaching.

[/quote]

I think the EBVM teaching was just fine. From where the tangent originated I suspect the slight is more on Cambridge Vet School's ophthalmologist, who has been a vocal, I assume paid, proponent of Remend. Some of his published writing on David's Magic Drops are here http://www.veterinary-practice.com/issues/2014/02/vp_02_2014_ulcers.pdf

I do feel that I qualified with good practical skills, but like all vet graduates I believe this is still as much down to EMS as in-university teaching?