Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 20:04:42 GMT

Yes at the time I felt sure the VDS had made up that story. it was completely unrealistic.

Mariette

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 12:22:56 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Avril mcginn"]Today I had a dog in for rabies vaccine, v v nervous dog and the annual booster due so they owner asked for it too. I checked the datasheet to say DHPPI ok to give with rabies and didnt think to check the L4 datasheet.[/quote]

The license is talking about mixing them, i.e. you could use the rabies vaccine rather than the lepto as the diluent for DHPPi. My reading of it is that you can't mix the rabies and lepto, but I don't see an issue with giving them at the same time at different sites.

[/quote]Most passports I have seen which have been issued abroad, especially puppies which have scraped in with the minimum time restriction i.e. Rabies @ 12wks then passport valid 3 weeks later, have had the vaccines together.

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 12:12:07 GMT

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 00:48:09 GMT

There is no requirement to put other boosters in the passport. Don't.

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Avril Mc Ginn — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 20:46:15 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

The VDS thing was claptrap.

Most rabies vaccines can be given with a normal booster just not mixed directly with them.

[/quote]

Today I had a dog in for rabies vaccine, v v nervous dog and the annual booster due so they owner asked for it too. I checked the datasheet to say DHPPI ok to give with rabies and didnt think to check the L4 datasheet.

Should i give the dog another rabies vaccine on another occasion to be sure? not travelling until dec 17th so I have time. Didnt realise there was an issue with L4 and rabies, if there was no vaccine reaction who would notice this? customs?

thanks

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 11:10:15 GMT

[quote user="Gareth C."]

agree with bob as above, amoxycillin is fairly benign stuff, but if an animal is ill enough to be on abs it's probably too ill to be vaccinated...

[/quote]

I wouldn't give a live bacterial vaccine such as the KC vacc while on antibiotics, but would probably be okay to give an inactivated bacterial vaccine such as lepto, and the viral vaccines should be fine.

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Virginia Campbell — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 21:42:20 GMT

If the original notes had read: "mild colitis, some blood but pup very bright, abdo comfortable, temp normal, O reports appetite good and good form at home" then I would vax. With just the notes you have- including enteritis rather than colitis- I would have erred on the side of assuming that the pup had been at least a bit systemically unwell and delayed till next week to get a bit of clear blue water between illness and vax.

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 14:11:45 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Why would you give a puppy with diarrhoea amoxycillin anyway? [/quote]

If it was caused by Amoxycillin sensitive bacteria of course. Wouldn't give it first line for diarrhoea alone.

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Robin Grimmer — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 12:26:08 GMT

Why would you give a puppy with diarrhoea amoxycillin anyway?

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Bob Russell — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 10:57:28 GMT

The VDS thing was claptrap.

Most rabies vaccines can be given with a normal booster just not mixed directly with them.

Some data sheets leave it up to the clinician. There is no scientific reason why they cannot be given at the same time. Back in the days of rabies blood testing it became obvious that it provides adequate titres given at the same time. Read data sheets carefully and avoid mixing brands so you don't get companies blaming each other.

Data sheets are for guidance only and sometimes we just need to think things through. An antibiotic will not interfere with a vaccine (other than a live bacterial one). The reason for giving that antibiotic might though!

Unless there is a clear contraindication listed then there should be no problem. It is not off licence.

Puppies come in and have all sorts of treatments at the time of vaccination, worming, fleas etc.

Commonsense is more important than CYA. Is there a reason why something would interfere? We are scientifically trained to weigh up these factors.

I would feel a bit foolish giving intranasal KC vaccine to a dog on antibiotics but I bet it has been done many times over the years by vets.

Also I would argue that we are not facing increasing litigation just an increased fear of litigation. Far more trial by social media though.

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Aisling McGrath — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 10:34:11 GMT

Thanks for all your replies.

Does anyone know about it being licensed to give at the same time?

The reason I ask is the whole drama of giving L4 at same time as Rabies or giving KC vacc at same time as Rabies is off license for example, and was mentioned in VDS newsletter earlier this year as causing an issue for a travelling pet.

I know this case is completely unlike that, but if I did vacc the pup while still on abs, and the pup picked up parvo or distemper or lepto or whatever, would the vacc company pay for it, as would they consider it an off license use?

This is pure "CYA - Cover Your Ass" territory I know, but we all need to be careful in these days of increasing litigation!

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Bob Russell — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 09:53:32 GMT

We use the Virbac Speed giardia but are running it in parallel with the new Abaxis test. So far both are in line with each other.

We did try the Henry Schein version but did not find it reliable. May have been a batch problem?

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

David Mills — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 20:49:34 GMT

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"]I am being over cautious? What do other people do in this situation?[/quote]

Yes. Vaccinate.

If the puppy is well systemically, why not?

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Beats — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 20:23:12 GMT

Different perspective:

I do not recommend "delaying socialisation"; I do recommend avoiding the local over-crowded, off-leash dog park until happy that immunity likely to parvo from vaccinations, but I would recommend avoiding it regardless as it would be a particularly risky area to attempt to socialise a dog in! (I appreciate that local parvo risk affects local recommendations)

I cannot see how the administration of an antibacterial would likely interfere with the efficacy of a routine puppy vaccine.

If I was concerned that a puppy might not get adequate immunity from a vaccine I planned to administer (but was not at any unusually excessive risk of ill-health from being given it), then I would most likely administer an extra vaccination 2-4 weeks later rather than not administer my planned one.

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Aisling McGrath — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 18:24:47 GMT

It has been 4 days since the bloody diarrhoea and starting AB ttm...

Personally I always treat them with Panacur in case of Giardia, but colleague prefers amoxy...

Out of interest, do you test in house for giardia, or send the sample to the lab?

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Gareth C. — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 17:57:25 GMT

agree with bob as above, amoxycillin is fairly benign stuff, but if an animal is ill enough to be on abs it's probably too ill to be vaccinated...

RE: Would you give 2nd vacc to pup on amoxycillin for D+?

Bob Russell — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 17:54:08 GMT

Not worried about the antibiotics as such but tend to go for a reasonable delay after illness of any sort. A few days would usually be enough.

Don't care too much about a delay in socialisation as diarrhoea would be enough to delay that on its own unless infection can be ruled out.

Pretty routinely test for giardia and often find it in these situations.