Radiation H&S

RE: Radiation H&S

Anthony Todd — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 17:07:47 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]Being an equine vet??[/quote]

Back in the day it was common for the [male] vet to hold the portable generator [30lbs?] in his groin with knees bent to get the particular joint in shot......

RE: Radiation H&S

Laura Kidd — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 16:48:31 GMT

Indeed to both

RE: Radiation H&S

Wren — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 16:25:09 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Laura Kidd"] There are very few/ (no?) times anyone should need to be in the controlled area...[/quote]

Taking manually inflated views of the chest?

[/quote]

Being an equine vet??

RE: Radiation H&S

Rob Loxley — Sat, 05 Aug 2017 14:32:19 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]The actuality is not the actual risk, but the theoretical risk that cannot legally be shown to have been protected against.[/quote]

You can comply with the regulations without necessarily using individual personal dosimeters, but as per the regs you need to speak to your RPA

RE: Radiation H&S

Anthony Todd — Sat, 05 Aug 2017 11:39:22 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]I've never known anyone get a reading on a wearable (and forgettable) badge. We put a dosemeter on the wall next to the machine rather than outside and that never gets a reading either.[/quote]

I'm sure a forensic radiologist would in evidence, with test films, that radiation is not like the light from a lightbulb but leaks directionally, just not onto the specific dosemeter in a specific place.

The actuality is not the actual risk, but the theoretical risk that cannot legally be shown to have been protected against.

[The radiographer at my Uni had a red plasticky screen which he hand held allowing him to watch the heart beating etc. He used it for years and only had a "bit of arthritis in his hand"....]

RE: Radiation H&S

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 17:32:01 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Still not a lot of use if is a standard door and stud partition wall - not much better than a metre of fresh air.[/quote]

Lead lined door and brick wall...

RE: Radiation H&S

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 16:45:46 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]...the anaesthetic trolley is round the corner so no direct line of sight between the person squeezing the bag on the anaesthetic circuit and the xray room.[/quote]Still not a lot of use if is a standard door and stud partition wall - not much better than a metre of fresh air.

I don't have an issue standing in the X-ray room squeezing the bag but I would not expect any other member of staff to do so and I can always wear a lead apron if I want. But the vagaries of radiation spread are such that an area 4 metres away from the generator head behind a wooden door in my practice is more of a hotpot than an area one metre away. Its pretty minimal but still measurable. Unless you have the same sort of monitoring equipment the RPA has you just don't know.

RE: Radiation H&S

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 16:29:40 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]the anaesthetic trolley is outside the xray room (which is quite small!) so you can manually inflate the chest and take the radiograph without any risk of exposure.[/quote]How long is the hose FFS then?

Unless you've got holes for the hoses through a lead lined door how does it matter if the anaesthetic machine is inside or outside the X-ray room?

[/quote]

Normal length hose, the animal's head is next to the door, yes the door is open a crack, but the anaesthetic trolley is round the corner so no direct line of sight between the person squeezing the bag on the anaesthetic circuit and the xray room.

RE: Radiation H&S

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 16:16:24 GMT

Unless you've got holes for the hoses through a lead lined door how does it matter if the anaesthetic machine is inside or outside the X-ray room?

RE: Radiation H&S

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 16:08:46 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Laura Kidd"] There are very few/ (no?) times anyone should need to be in the controlled area...[/quote]

Taking manually inflated views of the chest?

[/quote]

Not at our practice, the anaesthetic trolley is outside the xray room (which is quite small!) so you can manually inflate the chest and take the radiograph without any risk of exposure.

I once left my badge on the table when taking an xray, not in the primary beam but very close, it was sent away with an explanation of what happened, results came back as no exposure.

RE: Radiation H&S

Rob Loxley — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 13:54:48 GMT

[quote user="Laura Kidd"] There are very few/ (no?) times anyone should need to be in the controlled area...[/quote]

Taking manually inflated views of the chest?

RE: Radiation H&S

Laura Kidd — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 18:47:50 GMT

My understanding is that local rules should be available for every member of staff doing radiography with a copy displayed in the controlled area.

The local rules should be current and state in the practice who is allowed to take X-rays and who not

I was told by RPA that dosemeters are NOT required if the RPA/ RPS makes a rule (documented in the local rules) that NO-ONE is allowed in the controlled area during the exposure. Obviously then has to be adhered to. There are very few/ (no?) times anyone should need to be in the controlled area...

All X-ray procedures should be recorded in chronological order as best practice

Laura

RE: Radiation H&S

Rob Loxley — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 18:18:03 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Actual risk is tiny in most cases, but legally!?!?

[/quote]

The law says that you shall limit exposure to below a certain level and consult an RPA to achieve this, whether this be by personal dose monitoring or other suitable measurements.

As far as displaying local rules, the law says employers should take all reasonable steps to ensure they are followed, and surely actually putting them on display in the xray room would be considered such a reasonable step? The HSE Approved Code of Practice says: Local rules should be available to employees and other people directly involved or likely to be affected at or near the area concerned, for example by displaying sections of the rules relevant to particular operations in, or immediately adjacent to, the area

RE: Radiation H&S

Bob Russell — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 18:08:34 GMT

We had to insist that the RPA wore a gown when making test exposures here!!

RE: Radiation H&S

Anthony Todd — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 18:06:26 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]It surprises me that across the pond they seem to have far less regard for radiation safety.[/quote]

Staff and principals might but lawyers are "regarding" our posts as we write.....

The irony in my post was that, when her own dog needed an Xray, she, unshielded, held it under the direct beam without a murmur.....

RE: Radiation H&S

Rob Davis — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 17:47:25 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

All of the above is fine until a medico finds something like a mammary mass and then says "Do you have anything to do with X-rays?" as happened to me.

Follow best advice to the letter and do it very publicly!!!

Actual risk is tiny in most cases, but legally!?!?

[/quote]

It surprises me that across the pond they seem to have far less regard for radiation safety. It would seem that holding conscious patients for x-rays is commonplace in the USA, and given their propensity for litigation I am surprised that this is still the case.

RE: Radiation H&S

Rob Davis — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 17:45:21 GMT

We have a dosemeter on the wall in the x-ray room. It is closer to the tube head than anybody is ever standing and never has any significant reading. Our RPA is happy with this system. We do have a separate dosemeter for use with the dental x-ray generator and is worn by the operator (i.e. not a separate one for each individual). This also has never shown any significant reading.

I am fairly sure that local rules are supposed to be displayed and that a record should be kept of all exposures taken, though I'm not certain without checking whether these are actual requirements or simply considered best practice.

RE: Radiation H&S

Anthony Todd — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 17:29:08 GMT

All of the above is fine until a medico finds something like a mammary mass and then says "Do you have anything to do with X-rays?" as happened to me.

Follow best advice to the letter and do it very publicly!!!

Actual risk is tiny in most cases, but legally!?!?

RE: Radiation H&S

Rob Loxley — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 15:09:50 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]apparently the RPA said the readings always came up so low there was no point[/quote]

We had similar discussion with our RPA, given at least 10 years of near zero readings

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] no local rules on display anywhere[/quote]

I would expect those to be on display in the xray room
I would expect there to be a dose chart
I could see you could record exposures via the imaging system, but I'd be surprised if it was recording the kV/mAs with this?

RE: Radiation H&S

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 14:37:36 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]I've never known anyone get a reading on a wearable (and forgettable) badge. [/quote]I've mentioned this before but we had one nurse who consistently had a reading on her badge and no-one else ever did yet she did nothing different to the rest of us. It turned out she took the badge home and put it on a window sill! Which just goes to show how much more at risk from natural background radiation we are than we ever will be from X-rays.

RE: Radiation H&S

bob lehner — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 13:23:09 GMT

Normally one would follow the advice of the RPA as he/she is considered to be the 'expert' - but they do sometimes give rather diverse advice.

PSS covers 'Diagnostic Imaging' in a lot of detail. Have a look at Module 5 of the PSS Manual - http://www.rcvs.org.uk/document-library/small-animal-modules/ - this will answer most of your questions - at least from the PSS standpoint.

RE: Radiation H&S

Jill Butterworth — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 13:09:31 GMT

I've never known anyone get a reading on a wearable (and forgettable) badge. We put a dosemeter on the wall next to the machine rather than outside and that never gets a reading either. If you aren't happy, be proactive and put it right and create protocol for yourself, I expect your boss is too busy.

With a pregnant member of staff I prefer that they are never in the room with the machine on, in case of an accidental discharge, so this is my way round it: talk to the nurses (one of them is bound to be pregnant sooner or later, so they should listen) ask them to set up the plate with light beam diaphragm centred over the whole plate, then switch off, so you can enter the room, get the patient and do your stuff, show the nurse where you would like it coned down to, then retire again. Let them switch on, fire and switch off, then back you go. Otherwise, it's easier to train 2 nurses to do it, but that might not be available to you.

It's easy once you adjust, and there should be a red light to let you know the machine is on. Ideally you can switch off outside the room, but this isn't always possible. Get up to speed with reliable, safe sedation protocols so you don't get in a muddle and find you need to be in the room when you shouldn't.

It's very easy to start your own chart.

Tap the walls near the door and check you are retiring behind a brick or heavy block, rather than stud wall, or light breeze block. Otherwise, plenty of distance and get a nurse to fire the machine. Inspiratory images are the most problematic, and most people wing it and compromise.

You'll be fine, don't go all uniony and alienate everyone, just use the knowledge you have to tweak what's already there, so you don't panic yourself. Oh, and ask on here!

RE: Radiation H&S

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 11:47:59 GMT

We have personal dosimeters for all staff - how can a single environmental monitor give a reading for everyone if they are standing in different parts of the building?

There has to be a copy of local rules on display and it is good practice to manually record exposures even if the digital processor stores them, this is a requirement for a nurse training practice.

A huge advantage of a digital system is that the settings barely change for views/animals as the processor seems to work it out by magic but there is a standard settings chart next to our processor as not every possible view/patient will be recorded.

However I wouldn't worry too much about what dose you're getting we never get a reading of any sort on any of our dosimeters however close we stand to the generator.