Flea control for chickens

RE: Flea control for chickens

bob lehner — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:08:16 GMT

Gordon Bennett - you are a pedantic old whatsit - you know perfectly well what was meant....!

RE: Flea control for chickens

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 14:49:33 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"] said they were using an'organic' product - but it was in fact Fipronil-based. [/quote]

Fipronil is an organic chemical.

RE: Flea control for chickens

bob lehner — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 13:28:51 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

Fipronil is not legally allowed for use near food-producing animals and it shouldn’t be there":

https://www.food.gov.uk/news-updates/news/2017/16427/update-on-fipronil-in-eggs-10-august

[/quote]

Yes - and the consequences of inappropriate use can clearly be astronomical in economic terms.

I saw a news item about this incident - it seems a company in ? Belgium was contracted to fumigate industrial poultry houses - said they were using an'organic' product - but it was in fact Fipronil-based.

No suggestion of veterinary involvement as far as I know - but imagine the size of the potential claim for losses by the producers - VDS would not be happy if it happened over here and a VS was involved!

Moral - you gotta be careful when prescribing for food producing animals - even backyard chickens.

RE: Flea control for chickens

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:12:00 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Ref current recall of eggs for fipronil contamination; "it is very unlikely that there is a risk to public health. Based on the available evidence there is no need for people to change the way they consume or cook eggs. However, Fipronil is not legally allowed for use near food-producing animals and it shouldn’t be there":[/quote]It does sound like a gross over-reaction and I would be happy to eat the eggs but maybe this will be the catalyst to stop people buying Fipronil products and come to us for something that works. That said I doubt the average punter even knows that Fipronil is the active ingredient of Frontline.

It does however to some extent vindicate our practice policy of refusing to routinely apply flea products to client's pets because of the, admittedly vanishingly small, risk to us from contact/inhalation.

RE: Flea control for chickens

Rob Loxley — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 18:12:01 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

Rob's post was not patronising at all - just pointing out (rather clearly I thought) the legalities of prescribing to food producing animals - the regulations exist - whether we like them or not.

I'm afraid many SA vets presented with a chicken to treat are blissfully unaware of all the rules and regs re prescribing. How many people are aware of EU 37/2010 - I certainly wasn't until I found myself in the unusual position of preaching to PSS practices!

[/quote]

Ref current recall of eggs for fipronil contamination; "it is very unlikely that there is a risk to public health. Based on the available evidence there is no need for people to change the way they consume or cook eggs. However, Fipronil is not legally allowed for use near food-producing animals and it shouldn’t be there":

https://www.food.gov.uk/news-updates/news/2017/16427/update-on-fipronil-in-eggs-10-august

RE: Flea control for chickens

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:00:03 GMT

Interesting article in this month's 'In Practice' on treating red mite infestations in chickens, some of which may be applicable to fleas.

RE: Flea control for chickens

Beats — Wed, 26 Jul 2017 20:28:16 GMT

got a flea from a cat and was dog flea - no reported infestations of chickens with Ctenocephalides canis that I'm aware of and decided to let them off the hook for next 3 months and reassess then.

RE: Flea control for chickens

bob lehner — Wed, 26 Jul 2017 12:16:59 GMT

Rob's post was not patronising at all - just pointing out (rather clearly I thought) the legalities of prescribing to food producing animals - the regulations exist - whether we like them or not.

RE: Flea control for chickens

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 26 Jul 2017 09:22:44 GMT

[quote user="Judith Archbold"]Sorry, but I didn't appreciate Rob Loxley's patronising. I am aware of my low status as a mere "assistant veterinary surgeon.... [/quote]Sorry Judith but I didn't find Rob's reply patronising at all. How does he know that you have extensive knowledge of this? - as far as I read he was merely enlightening all of us. I didn't know and I'm a "high-status practice owner of 42 years experience"!!

Us vociferous forum veterans are often accused of being over-critical and intimidating newer members. I get the impression that you are not easily intimidated but equally are being over-sensitive. Chill out.

RE: Flea control for chickens

Rob Loxley — Tue, 25 Jul 2017 18:11:43 GMT

[quote user="Judith Archbold"]Sorry, but I didn't appreciate Rob Loxley's patronising[/quote]

It's not intended to patronise you, but as professionals being asked to give advice - ultimately to clients - we should be clear where such advice stands within the law?

RE: Flea control for chickens

Judith Archbold — Tue, 25 Jul 2017 17:42:33 GMT

Sorry, but I didn't appreciate Rob Loxley's patronising. I can recite drug laws as well as the next vet. I was trying to be helpful by passing on first hand experience as a chicken owner to a colleague: who I'm sure is perfectly capable of deciding whether or not to relay that information to a client.

I am aware of my low status as a mere "assistant veterinary surgeon" but sometimes I have the audacity to add my opinion to this forum.

my Diatoms knowledge is priceless!

RE: Flea control for chickens

Iain Richards — Tue, 25 Jul 2017 14:38:16 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]

"C felis is the most common flea species infesting cats worldwide. It can also infest dogs and other mammalian hosts, including foxes, opossums, ferrets, rodents, rabbits, horses, cattle, sheep, goats and koalas, as well as poultry,6–14 which can act as reservoir hosts for the cat." from Journal of cat stuff which references:

Joseph SA, Karunamoorthy G and Lalitha CM. Cat flea, Ctenocephalides felis felis (Bouché) infestation in a poultry farm of Tamil Nadu. Indian J Poultry Sci 1984; 19: 192–193

As to how common a problem as a reservoir host 2 chickens in a sandschool can be I don't know.

There's also the chicken flea? I appreciate it's probably cat fleas being found on the cats, but it could be chicken fleas.

Thanks for suggestions on what to traet chickens with. Any refs or experience with the fipronil spray? Hardly lay any eggs anyway, so owner not too bothered about needing to chuck them.

[/quote]

Fair enough! Sounds like the owner could just soak them in fipronil as a belt and braces, plus burn all the bedding.

No criticism intended, but I doubt poultry is a true reservoir; an accidental host, yes, but not a reservoir. The reference isn't available (Edinburgh library) and it's only one reference, albeit a peer reviewed journal. I did a CAB extracts search for Ctenocephalidies and poultry, with very few results.

RE: Flea control for chickens

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:55:28 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]Any refs or experience with the fipronil spray? Hardly lay any eggs anyway, so owner not too bothered about needing to chuck them.[/quote]From BSAVA small animal formulary it says apply spray to a cotton bud and dab behind the head under the wings and at the base of the tail for raptos and parrots and under the wings for pigeons and passerines. No mention of chickens but can't see it an be much different to either. But then as IME fipronil is pretty useless maybe just stick to diatamaceous earth.

Given Fipronil is a surface actor I struggle to see how it can affect the eggs. I can see why it would be sensible not to sell them but I'd be happy to eat them myself.

RE: Flea control for chickens

Beats — Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:39:54 GMT

Joseph SA, Karunamoorthy G and Lalitha CM. Cat flea, Ctenocephalides felis felis (Bouché) infestation in a poultry farm of Tamil Nadu. Indian J Poultry Sci 1984; 19: 192–193

As to how common a problem as a reservoir host 2 chickens in a sandschool can be I don't know.

There's also the chicken flea? I appreciate it's probably cat fleas being found on the cats, but it could be chicken fleas.

"Although dogs and cats could be transient hosts for virtually any species of flea, only Ctenocephalides felis felis,Ctenocephalides canis,Pulex spp., and Echidnophaga gallinacea are of medical concern in most pets." Muller&Kirk's Small Animal Derm 2013

Thanks for suggestions on what to traet chickens with. Any refs or experience with the fipronil spray? Hardly lay any eggs anyway, so owner not too bothered about needing to chuck them.

RE: Flea control for chickens

Rob Loxley — Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:33:55 GMT

[quote user="Judith Archbold"]Could also use Frontline Spray off licence... but can't eat the eggs then[/quote]

It's worth being aware that using fipronil in chickens is more than just off-licence. Chickens are classed as food producing animals (even if only kept as pets), and as such under Schedule 4 of the VMR any pharmacologically active substances included in a medicinal product administered to a food-producing animal under the cascade must be listed in Table 1 in the Annex to Commission Regulation (EU) No 37/2010, which fipronil is not.
That's not to say that plenty of people don't use fipronil in chickens, or that at some dose/withdrawl period it may not be perfectly safe, but as professionals giving advice we should be aware of the law.

RE: Flea control for chickens

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:10:25 GMT

Do cat fleas live on chickens and vice-versa? As Iain says I suspect the chickens are innocent in this.

RE: Flea control for chickens

Iain Richards — Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:52:30 GMT

I suspect the chickens are not that significant, especially as you say the flea care could be beefed up.

RE: Flea control for chickens

Judith Archbold — Mon, 24 Jul 2017 23:26:20 GMT

I've always used Diatoms Powder on my chickens and in their coop. Works well against red mites and fleas as well. Easily obtained from various websites / SCATS/MOLE VALLEY FARMERS type places. Still OK to eat the eggs.

Couled also use Frontline Spray off licence... but can't eat the eggs then.

Hopet this helps.