Glasgow swab for gingivitis

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:04:36 GMT

The answer to the question is: although most of the signs gingivitis will be seen around the carnassials and smaller pre-molars the K9s can be involved as well. There is nothing that changes my previous advice.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Anthony Todd — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 19:31:43 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Update;[/quote]

Obviously worse, halitosis and tartar on molar >=0.5mm

See picture attached.

Is the redness around the base of the canine unusual??

Going onto Hills T/D but obviously fed elsewhere too, we think

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Anthony Todd — Sun, 23 Jul 2017 12:06:48 GMT

Update; both I and my son agree that there is an obvious lessening of redness which may just be wishful thinking but certainly it isn't worse.

Just to be honest the cat goes "out" for hours and doesn't eat all the wet food at home so a decent diet trial it is not!

Tincture of Time, often surprisingly effective in many conditions, may be the therapeutic agent in this case, although it is not currently a vetPOM.

Will continue with honest updates and photos when the *ugger will let us.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Kate Richardson — Tue, 18 Jul 2017 19:44:15 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] looks like slightly hyperplastic gingival tissue but difficult to say for certain from the pic,[/quote]

Geez, looks pretty obviously bright red to me with absolutely no sign of dental abnormality or hyperplasia, apart from inflamed gums;

[/quote]You have mixed your quotes Anthony that was not me, I agree with you on this occasion (OMG did I really say that)?!

[/quote]

It was me. The picture I viewed wasn't that clear, I agree it is red (although have seen far worse), it was the hyperplastic bit that I couldn't be certain of from the picture I viewed as it was sl out of focus.

I agree it is unlikely there is any tooth pathology but you cannot say for certain from the photo. If I saw the cat in front of me I might be more certain. And just because there are no symptoms/overt pain/smell or pus doesn't rule out a lesion!

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Anthony Todd — Tue, 18 Jul 2017 16:30:12 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]You have mixed your quotes Anthony that was not me, I agree with you on this occasion (OMG did I really say that)?![/quote]

Sorry Martin!

[only apologising because of the luke warm watery agreement, which is the first from you to me in the long history of vetsurgeon.org.....]

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:57:43 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] looks like slightly hyperplastic gingival tissue but difficult to say for certain from the pic,[/quote]

Geez, looks pretty obviously bright red to me with absolutely no sign of dental abnormality or hyperplasia, apart from inflamed gums;

[/quote]You have mixed your quotes Anthony that was not me, I agree with you on this occasion (OMG did I really say that)?!

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Anthony Todd — Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:09:37 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]RCW dental[/quote]

Will post picture in 4 weeks or so then try the above diet.

Can only re-emphasise the lack of symptoms or pain and certainly no pus, smell or dental pathology, so nothing like the presentation in older cats.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 18 Jul 2017 06:08:41 GMT

Usually with that presentation found incidentally at vaccination in a young cat I would advise a diet such as RCW dental (and recheck in a month or so). Usually they are much improved when next seen (usually at the next annual health check!) so I would be intrigued to hear if he improves on the wet/ grain free diet.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Anthony Todd — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 18:38:10 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] looks like slightly hyperplastic gingival tissue but difficult to say for certain from the pic,[/quote]

Geez, looks pretty obviously bright red to me with absolutely no sign of dental abnormality or hyperplasia, apart from inflamed gums; and no sign at all of pain or discomfit, exactly the sort of thing humans see in allergic gingivitis apparently, but with pain and discomfit.

Will keep you all posted but we are not GAing the cat either which is probably the only way the cat will allow forensic photography....!!

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Bob Russell — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 12:43:50 GMT

Nice picture!

I hate these ones but I can almost feel the reaction to plaque bacteria! G/a, scale, polish, radiography to start. Encourage routine 'maintenance' and probably onto a dental diet. Despite my initial scepticism they do seem to help to some degree.

No swabs (PCR if owner really wants) because a +ve leads to the above and a negative seems a bit of a shame that it cost money for 'nothing'. Then treat as above.

Antibiotics seem to calm things down but it then comes back so does not seem to be a good use of antibiotics to me.

Will be interesting to see how our patients do on Virbac food which is not 'dental' but is wheat free! Never really considered allergy as a cause but Glasgow did recommend one food in particular that escapes my fuddled mind. It was before Applaws was on the market.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 11:16:30 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Anthony Todd looks like slightly hyperplastic gingival tissue but difficult to say for certain from the pic, but thanks for posting it. If it is slightly hyperplastic (and is obviously inflamed, but not severely) I would advise assessing under ga, visually and with probing and if facilities allow radiography of the tooth to be certain no resorptive lesions, if none present or any other lesions on the teeth that might indicate extraction necessary, I would descale and then trim the hyperplastic tissue to reduce the depth of the sub gingival pockets (prob got my terminology all wrong so feel free anyone to correct it!), give a course of meloxicam and instill oral hygiene measures if possible but rarely get good compliance in cats, and monitor. I wouldn't swab this mouth.

[/quote]It is unlikely there is significant dental disease in this cat at 2 years. I would GA it to do a good oral examination just to be sure then perform an electrosurgical gingivectomy to remove the gingival pockets. If the cat is un-neutered/just a fighter, FIV is a possibility so I would screen for that and as said I would take a swab for FCV because I do believe inteferon is useful in many, if not all, of these cases.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Kate Richardson — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 22:12:03 GMT

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Anthony Todd — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 00:00:06 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]For once I agree with Tony, we'll partly.[/quote]

Not really an objection to swabbing per se although usually the modvet way is to say what yer find is the cause [see re malazessia...] more to wonder if some of these are reactive/allergic as in humans.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

David Mills — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 21:10:19 GMT

For once I agree with Tony, we'll partly.

I would not swab this mouth. It wouldn't even enter my mind to do so. Roids or metacam. Ginigitivis in people is irritating when you eat but not a constant pain or particularly acute.

Same goes for FSGC and swabbing. How is it going to change any treatment?

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Anthony Todd — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 20:56:34 GMT

Diet change to wet food with no grain starting today and hopefully I can paste this not brilliant image which gives a very good idea:

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 17:01:01 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]I would also be minded to go for PCR rather than isolation - opinions?[/quote]I never send anything for viral isolation now, PCR is very reliable and cheap.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Rob Loxley — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 15:27:33 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I'd be grateful for any comments or advice. particularly regarding prognosis and treatment.[/quote]

I think you have received some good advice that your description is sufficiently vague to encompass a very large array of problems, all with different diagnostic/treatment paths.

Maybe some photos might help people to know more what is going on.

As for viral swabs, I'm less inclined to test for calici in FCGS cases these days, as it rarely alters what I do; and am now more inclined to look at radical extractions sooner rather than later.

As for the cost of a test, seems pricey. The price list (ex vat, sampling, processing and interpretation) of their gingivitis profile is £44; for calici isolation alone is £19. I would also be minded to go for PCR rather than isolation - opinions?

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 08:54:24 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]The other problem I find with knowing whether cases like this respond to any particular treatment is that they sometimes resolve on their own.[/quote]There is no doubt in the really chronic cases I've seen which improved with interferon did so because of the treatment. With young cats with what may be just prolonged eruption gingivitis the case may not be so clear albeit I often to an electrosurgical gingivectomy at neutering which seems to resolve that.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 12 Jul 2017 16:46:41 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Hopefully, in this case, we will and I promise to report back, with photos if any response.[/quote]

The other problem I find with knowing whether cases like this respond to any particular treatment is that they sometimes resolve on their own.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Anthony Todd — Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:01:41 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]AFAIA 'allergic gingivitis' does not occur in cats [/quote]

Not to flog a dead horse, but has anyone tried?

Hopefully, in this case, we will and I promise to report back, with photos if any response.

Steroids will not even be whispered, and was never suggested because even I realise it is palliative and not curative, and Glen is totally unconcerned about his gum condition.

I only used them to relieve a distressing condition.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 12 Jul 2017 09:00:54 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

...which made me suggest just a simple allergic reaction to something and a diet trial.

[/quote]AFAIA 'allergic gingivitis' does not occur in cats unless you interpret the Battle Royale of the body's immune system with calici virus aided by the many other factors involved in FGS as an allergy.

Steroids improve the condition because they reduce inflammation and suppress this immune mediated response but they are NOT treating an allergy. They have their use when other methods of treatment: scrupulous dental hygiene with extractions if necessary, antibiotics, antiviral and non-steroidal anti-inflammatory treatment have failed.

But let's not get into one of you dinovet steroid arguments FFS Anthony or I may give you one star.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Kate Richardson — Wed, 12 Jul 2017 08:52:23 GMT

As with any diagnostic test being performed one should ask first is this going to change how we manage this case. Assuming we are talking about swabs for viral pcrs in gingivitis/gingivostomatitis cases my opinion is that they are of minimal value and a waste of the clients money.

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Anthony Todd — Wed, 12 Jul 2017 00:29:16 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"] Seems that there is some evidence in humans and the cat is on dried, grain based food.....[/quote]

[sigh] So no matter what evidence is suggested, if it doesn't follow the tests- solve-everything protocol, which is yet another modvet dogma, then it is rubbished with one star, and, as usual, no justification at all.

Everyone isn't on the cash for tests craze surely?

Arlo, I thought you were onto this......

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Anthony Todd — Tue, 11 Jul 2017 22:45:31 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Allergic gingivitis is recognised in humans.[/quote]

[sorry keyboard playing up]

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/09/it-starts-in-the-mouth/

https://www.celiac.com/gluten-free/topic/20465-sore-gums-and-food-intolerances/

RE: Glasgow swab for gingivitis

Anthony Todd — Tue, 11 Jul 2017 21:26:00 GMT

[quote user="Emma Middleton"]http://www.catvirus.com/stomatitis.html[/quote]

This seems pretty comprehensive although steroids get their usual denigration...

My son's cat is nowhere near the classic older cat presentation, as I said, and, as I said, has no pain as far as anyone can see, which made me suggest just a simple allergic reaction to something and a diet trial.