Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 04 Jul 2017 19:36:59 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]You are being a bit naive Arlo. We can all produce our own client info sheet but one which doesn't have the vested interest of the company involved in it. It is still all a blatant attempt to legitimatise a product promotion.[/quote]

Uh,

I said:

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Of course it is![/quote]

I'm not naive, I used to do a lot of marketing for Novartis Animal Health, things like Fortekor, Clomicalm, Econor, Capstar, and of course, Program. So I do know a marketing communication when I see one!

I think we are talking at slightly cross purposes here. I see quite a mild plug for a product, presented in something which perhaps some might find useful. Fair dos, I say to myself. Anybody with half a brain can see it for what it is, and take it or leave it!

But now I re-read, esp. Judith's reaction, I guess your beef is that it wasn't more clearly presented as 'Hi, we make sensitest, and we've just produced xxx', and because it wasn't, you think it was a bit sneeky? I guess that's fair enough. As I say, it seemed obvious to me (I mean, it was posted by the marketing manager!) so I thought it would be to everyone else.

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 04 Jul 2017 17:53:42 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]providing a potentially useful download (which is not teaching granny to suck eggs - it's a client info sheet)[/quote]You are being a bit naive Arlo. We can all produce our own client info sheet but one which doesn't have the vested interest of the company involved in it. It is still all a blatant attempt to legitimatise a product promotion. A said its your call, most of us are big enough to make our own judgement.

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Judith Joyce — Tue, 04 Jul 2017 17:46:43 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"][quote user="Martin Atkinson"] I still just see this as blatant free product promotion[/quote][/quote]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Of course it is![/quote]

I think my issue was that when it was posted it wasn't immediately obvious that it was product promotion but thanks to Martin, it is now.

No offence to Gary but I think it would a better discussion on cutaneous or other adverse reaction to food would involve Board certified dermatologists with a current research interest in the area, rather than solely the marketing manager of an interested company

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 04 Jul 2017 11:05:32 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Maybe I'm just more cynical than you Arlo[/quote]

I very much doubt it!

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] I still just see this as blatant free product promotion[/quote]

Of course it is! I don't have any problem with product promotion per se. Just that in the forums, posts must have at least a semblance doing something more than just advertising the virtues of a product or widget. This one seems to me to do just that - by virtue of providing a potentially useful download (which is not teaching granny to suck eggs - it's a client info sheet), and by starting an interesting discussion.

And I think your reply is perfectly in order. My view, from the days when I was working for Novartis and promoting Program (which a lot of VSs were dubious about), is that when people react negatively about a product, it is the best opportunity to engage and put the other side of the argument. That, and in the words of Mr Wilde: "there's only one things worse than being talked about ... which is not being talked about."

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 04 Jul 2017 10:21:37 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] it does offer useful advice (and, I note, a download for VSs to give clients that lists common mistakes with elimination diets WITHOUT mentioning Sensitest).[/quote]Maybe I'm just more cynical than you Arlo but I still just see this as blatant free product promotion, the pre-amble is just to lull us into a false belief its not. Hopefully we're all experienced enough to make our own decisions on the value of the test, which as the posts have shown is almost universally that it is of little use and based on biased research, and are fully aware of the protocols for elimination diets so we don't need granny to teach us how to suck eggs!

But in the end its your call if you want to allow that on your forum. I can choose to ignore it if I want but as you know that's not my way. Nuff said.

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 04 Jul 2017 09:58:39 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Arlo has clearly been tolerant of your advertising posts on here, I'm not but I can't do anything about it other than rant. If you wouldn't feed SPAM to a dog on an elimination diet, don't feed it to us either![/quote]

Not so much that I've been tolerant. More accurate to say that I've had my head buried under the hood for a few days, doing lots of techie stuff.

But since it's been brought to my attention ...

Gary Skipper, I wouldn't have disallowed your post even if I had seen it immediately!

Firstly because (as you say yourself, Martin Atkinson), it does offer useful advice (and, I note, a download for VSs to give clients that lists common mistakes with elimination diets WITHOUT mentioning Sensitest). So regardless of anything else, there is value in the post.

That said, Gary, your original post did look a bit like it has been cut and pasted from marketing materials, and it is always better to write something more personal, less 'markety' in forums.

Secondly, the post does provide an opportunity to discuss food allergy serology tests. Obviously at the risk to Gary of a challenging response from VS members, which is as it should be (important to challenge claims).

[quote user="Gary Skipper"]If anyone would like to discuss this subject in more detail please get in touch via our customer services team and we would be very happy to help.[/quote]

I suppose I am left thinking that it would be helpful to discuss the subject in more detail here! In other words, if the test is not diagnostic, then is there some other benefit which makes them more than:

[quote user="robloxley"]an expensive way to still end up on a hydrolysed protein diet trial.[/quote]

and what is being done to prevent:

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]pets may be being fed hydrolysed diets unnecessarily as the result of false information from these tests when a less expensive exclusion diet may be just as effective and with less of the potential side effects that can occur with hydrolysed diets.[/quote]

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 04 Jul 2017 09:16:32 GMT

[quote user="Gary Skipper"]Sorry for the delayed response to this.[/quote]You've got a thick skin and are persistent Gary, I'll give you credit for that.

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Judith Joyce — Tue, 04 Jul 2017 09:01:21 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Thankfully then I'm not the only who feels this way.[/quote][quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Thankfully then I'm not the only who feels this way.[/quote]

Definitely not the only one who feels this way

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Gary Skipper — Mon, 03 Jul 2017 12:38:35 GMT

Sorry for the delayed response to this. I usually get an email when someone has commented on a post, but this didn’t happen on this occasion. Thank you for highlighting the ICADA guidelines information. We strongly advocate looking at negative results to help aid in the selection of appropriate foods to include in a dietary trial (whether home-cooked or bought), and emphasise this should always be evaluated in conjunction with a complete dietary history. As in the article, we do not promote the test as diagnostic and hope these comments will further help raise awareness of how to use the test correctly. As a company, we invest heavily in research and development such as the collaborative study presented at the most recent WCVD in Bordeaux, 2016 (published in Veterinary Dermatology) looking at co-sensitization and cross-reactivity between related and unrelated food allergens in dogs which will hopefully advance our understanding of adverse food reactions further over time. If anyone would like to discuss this subject in more detail please get in touch via our customer services team and we would be very happy to help.

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 18:23:09 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Once a group of independent dermatologists start advocating blood tests for food allergy/sensitivities then they will be a welcome addition to my work up. Until then it will be low down my test list![/quote]

[quote user="robloxley"]My experience with food allergy serology results (not ordered by me but the owner came with from elsewhere) is it's an expensive way to still end up on a hydrolysed protein diet trial.[/quote]

Thankfully then I'm not the only who feels this way.

My one experience of a food allergy serology was that it showed the animal was sensitive to virtually every common foodstuff so it was impossible to give an elimination diet based on the results and hydrolysed diets were not available then so I've not bothered wasting anyone's money since. Even though they are now available a lot of pets may be being fed hydrolysed diets unnecessarily as the result of false information from these tests when a less expensive exclusion diet may be just as effective and with less of the potential side effects that can occur with hydrolysed diets.

The belief amongst independent dermatologists is that the tests are unreliable because serum IGE/IGG tests do not reflect the true picture at the business end of the problem, the gut wall.

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Rob Loxley — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:58:33 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]It is well recognised by all reputable dermatologists[/quote]
Apart from Richard Halliwell? Who has been extensively employed by the original poster's company?

Reading Treatment of canine atopic dermatitis: guidelines from the International Committee on Allergic Diseases of Animals (ICADA), in 2010 they said:
Serological and intradermal tests to determine hypersensitivity to food allergens are not recommended to assess the presence of food hypersensitivity in dogs with food-induced AD
and in the 2015 update:
Because of inconsistent or limited data available, additional studies are needed before recommending the use of specific IgG and IgE serology for, or intradermal or epicutaneous (patch) or lymphocyte stimulation tests with, food allergens to diagnose, or identify relevant food allergens in dogs with food-induced AD (SOR C)
and:
A recent evaluation of an IgG/IgE food allergen serology test (Sensitest, Avacta Veterinary Laboratories) reported that a negative serology result for a food allergen predicted the lack of clinical reaction to this food item in most dogs (negative predictive value of ~80 %); the reverse was not true for dogs with positive serology to food allergens (low positive predictive value)

For your food serology IGE and IGG test, the negative predictive values 80.7 and 83.7% and the positive predictive values were 15.4 and 34.8% - when compared against normal dogs and true food-responsive itchy dogs.
So correct me if I'm wrong but 20% of the time the test will be wrong in determining food to trial where a carefully selected diet trial will have resolved the itch in the dog with food-induced disease - leaving you still to do a better diet trial, which is where most of us would have just started, the diet trial costing less than the price of your test?

IDEXX will sell you food allergen serology, but at least they say: "Food allergen panels are available, but only a strict hypoallergenic dietary trial should be performed to appropriately diagnose food sensitivity/allergy"

My experience with food allergy serology results (not ordered by me but the owner came with from elsewhere) is it's an expensive way to still end up on a hydrolysed protein diet trial.

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Bob Russell — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:27:53 GMT

Following a good cpd event I have made exclusion diets a bit easier to encourage owners to follow.

Rule 1

Use a palatable hydrolysed protein diet. Pharmina ones seem particularly palatable.

Rule 2

Owners must be aware that this is the only food to be offered, no treats, no scrounging other foods.

Rule 3 (the new one!)

They only need to follow it for two weeks to start with.

If they think two weeks will do they are more likely to agree to start it. Get them to phone before finishing. They usually find it easier to do than they thought so get them to do a further 2 weeks! 'Bite sized bits' seem more palatable than a six week trial.

Once a group of independent dermatologists start advocating blood tests for food allergy/sensitivities then they will be a welcome addition to my work up. Until then it will be low down my test list!

RE: Common Pitfalls During an Elimination Diet Trial for Dogs and Cats

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 16:38:50 GMT

I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt Gary as the start of the article was good advice until I came to this:

Starting the process by running a SENSITEST for your client will help to select suitable foods for an elimination diet.

It is well recognised by all reputable dermatologists, certainly to the ones I've listened to, and my own experience that blood tests are worthless in diagnosing food allergy/sensitivity and the only method is by exclusion diet trials. It is a waste of the client's money and can give misleading advice.

Arlo has clearly been tolerant of your advertising posts on here, I'm not but I can't do anything about it other than rant. If you wouldn't feed SPAM to a dog on an elimination diet, don't feed it to us either!

If Arlo wants to red card me for this I will gladly take it and walk off head held high.