Urinary calculi

RE: Urinary calculi

janine redman — Sun, 21 May 2017 07:02:08 GMT

Interesting as we have had very few new hyperthyroid cats but several urolithiasis cases. All oxalate based and in different breeds. The new grads have done well on cystotomy practice

RE: Urinary calculi

Anthony Todd — Sat, 20 May 2017 12:29:08 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Kent"]PMSs should pick up any increase.[/quote]

I agree totally, I only searched by drugs or "treatments" but we could have sorted by sign or diagnosis, but never did.

If you mention it hopefully vetsurgers will add it to there PMS and the body of evidence will be huge.

Might pick it up by increase in dry dogfood sales??

Once set up and the habit formed it will take off.

RE: Urinary calculi

Andrew Kent — Sat, 20 May 2017 12:01:22 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

I would guess the dramatic change in cats' diets has been mirrored by the change in dogs' diets.

Do may/any owners still feed tinned food, with the subsequent slimy smelly stool?

[/quote]

Almost certainly the percentage of dogs fed wet diets has fallen and continues to do so - likely another factor.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]PMSs should pick up any increase.[/quote]

Sometimes that is easier said than done - I agree that intuitively you would think it is easy to look at these things but actually unless you set it up in advance for this purpose its quite difficult.

Most practice management software lets you search by fee - so which fee do you search to pick up all stone cases? And if you search in free text you get all cases that had stones, didn't have stones or had stones on the differential list.

I'm lucky and can search through imaging reports or referral letters which can make it easier but clearly referral practice numbers are not that helpful as they are rarely representative of real world prevalence.

Andy

RE: Urinary calculi

Anthony Todd — Sat, 20 May 2017 00:25:31 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Kent"]But diet is definitely a huge factor and it would be interesting to look in to.[/quote]

I would guess the dramatic change in cats' diets has been mirrored by the change in dogs' diets.

Do may/any owners still feed tinned food, with the subsequent slimy smelly stool?

PMSs should pick up any increase.

RE: Urinary calculi

Andrew Kent — Fri, 19 May 2017 20:25:15 GMT

Hi Julie,

We certainly see a lot of dogs with stone-related disease.

I think part of it could be that diagnostic techniques are better (e.g. better ultrasound) so we find them more often, awareness is higher so we look for it, and that many of the breeds that are becoming increasingly popular (small breed dogs, bulldogs etc) are also the breeds that are genetically predisposed to stone disease.

But diet is definitely a huge factor and it would be interesting to look in to.

Andy

RE: Urinary calculi

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 19 May 2017 15:01:54 GMT

Might be worth a letter to Vet Times to reach a wider audience and find out?

RE: Urinary calculi

Julie Innes — Fri, 19 May 2017 08:49:10 GMT

I think there has always been a general consensus that cats fed dry diets are more susceptible to crystals/ calculi, but it's really dogs I've been seeing lately, far far more than cats, in what seems like increasing numbers, and I just wondered if there was a general trend or something we should be looking at in canine diets (eg like those jerky treats that caused a stir a while ago, new formulations of diet, new treats etc) or could there be a genetic issue? The cat discussion is, to my mind, quite different.

RE: Urinary calculi

Anthony Todd — Tue, 16 May 2017 22:43:07 GMT

I've been ignoring one fundamental change which is virtually immovable and now a given; the permanent fundamental change in the diet of the domestic cat.

It is impossible to change cats' diet back to the original, for centuries, wet food, high water, high fat energy source, low magnesium, low oxalate diet to the current opposite, dry food, low water, low fat, high carbohydrate, high magnesium, high oxalate diet.

Crystals in urine will have to be accepted as normal, and if conditions are right, stones and FUS will continue to occur.

We'll just have to accept other ways of minimising crystalluria or stones such as acidification of food and water intake increase.

The vested interests, and advantages of dry food to the consumer, are too great for any major reversion.

RE: Urinary calculi

Anthony Todd — Tue, 16 May 2017 19:54:05 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[/quote]

But that just ignores the ionic concentration of solutions!

Just because you can't see crystals doesn't mean the ions [which form crystals or stones] aren't present.

Change the pH or temp or SG and suddenly you have massive crystalluria and FUS or even a stone, as I have said before, how do the crystals or stones form without, that's without, the ions' being present?

I accept that crystals are often found and cause no probs but if you change the internal mileau [pH SG, temp] cold urethra[???] then you'll get crystals or stones if the anions are present.

Jeepers, it is really very basic physical chemistry.

Or it's all "stress" [joke]

No apologies for another turbo post 'cos this is a really important feline problem which could be easily fixed if people just accepted basic chemistry and physics and yet they don't.............

RE: Urinary calculi

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 16 May 2017 17:34:53 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Crystals, like sugar in tea, dissolve when warmer so if the sample is warm or hot and spun it's likely that crystals will dissolve and not be recorded.[/quote]

Surely, if anything the opposite occurrence would be more likely - in vivo, at a toasty 38C/ 101F ish, crystals are in solution; when the sample rests at room temperature (lets say 20C, optimistic perhaps in the UK) the crystals begin to precipitate. This would then lead to an over-estimation of the incidence of crystalluria (ie it was recorded in the samples, but not actually present inside the animal). At Jodi Westropp's talks at BSAVA she suggested that urine really needs to be examined under the microscope within 30 minutes of being voided to assess accurately for crystalluria.

RE: Urinary calculi

Anthony Todd — Tue, 16 May 2017 13:09:32 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]Warmer than canine body temperature?[/quote]

Sorry, my poor attempt at sarcasm and a shot at the "stress" aetiology in cats has not helped.

Crystals, like sugar in tea, dissolve when warmer so if the sample is warm or hot and spun it's likely that crystals will dissolve and not be recorded.

Paradoxically, and this is a turbo-post, they are regarded as normal anyway, but stones don't come from nowhere......

RE: Urinary calculi

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 16 May 2017 12:22:50 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Weird![/quote]

Not really, you wrapped it in cotton-wool and the lab was nice and warm.

[/quote]

Warmer than canine body temperature?

RE: Urinary calculi

Julie Innes — Tue, 16 May 2017 08:44:08 GMT

That did occur to me, Andrew.

RE: Urinary calculi

Anthony Todd — Mon, 15 May 2017 17:49:37 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

That's interesting- seems I'm not the only one! It probably IS just coincidence, but any other thoughts? Could there be any dietary factors that are new?

[/quote]

Could well be; I lived through the GoCat era ....

Don't be surprised if a major manufacturer has discovered a cheaper source of energy that has, incidentally, a very high anion concentration which makes stones or crystals like you wouldn't believe....

RE: Urinary calculi

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 15 May 2017 16:52:33 GMT

How about this corker removed by a colleague recently, it was the size of the dog's skull! No outbreak noted, though.

RE: Urinary calculi

Julie Innes — Thu, 11 May 2017 08:49:57 GMT

That's interesting- seems I'm not the only one! It probably IS just coincidence, but any other thoughts? Could there be any dietary factors that are new?

RE: Urinary calculi

Anthony Todd — Mon, 08 May 2017 09:00:06 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Weird![/quote]

Not really, you wrapped it in cotton-wool and the lab was nice and warm.

No stress, you see.....

RE: Urinary calculi

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 08 May 2017 08:49:29 GMT

The cystotomy I did on Thursday last week (where I removed 2 decent sized struvite looking stones) had a urine sample sent off the day before, results came back at the weekend. No crystals seen.

Weird!

RE: Urinary calculi

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 05 May 2017 16:21:33 GMT

I've had my first CPV case in ages this week. I hope that doesn't start a run of them.

RE: Urinary calculi

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 05 May 2017 15:32:22 GMT

We've had 3 in the past couple of weeks.

One of them, weirdly, was a CKCS with chronic cystitis symptoms, and the stone was 70% Urate 30% Calcium Oxalate. No liver dysfunction what so ever. Weird.

Though we've also had a run of intussusceptions and splenectomies recently too. I scanned a dog yesterday that didn't have any normal appearing organs in it's abdomen at all, just completely obliterated by tumour!

RE: Urinary calculi

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 04 May 2017 14:12:22 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

What's stressing them all of a sudden? Heathrow's third runway? Brexit?

Got to be something; it won't be anything physical or chemical!

[/quote]Well what a surprise you'd chip in with a comment like that Anthony. You may not have noticed this thread is about dogs not cats and there's a picture with some bloody great stones in a bladder.

RE: Urinary calculi

Anthony Todd — Thu, 04 May 2017 12:41:26 GMT

What's stressing them all of a sudden? Heathrow's third runway? Brexit?

Got to be something; it won't be anything physical or chemical!

RE: Urinary calculi

emma o'connor — Thu, 04 May 2017 09:48:18 GMT

strangely enough we have also had 3 in the last couple of months, two cocker spaniels and a SBT, having not seen any for about a year!

RE: Urinary calculi

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 04 May 2017 09:23:17 GMT

Probably just London Bus syndrome!

RE: Urinary calculi

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 03 May 2017 17:42:55 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

We seem to have had a sudden "outbreak" of urinary stones! It may be coincidence, but over the last few months I have seen several dogs with urinary calculi- 2 ops this week alone! I'm starting to wonder if it's something to do with food/ treats, but they seem to be fed on various different diets. Just curious as to whether this is solely coincidence or part of a bigger picture?? various breeds too- this week Lhasa apso and an SBT. Recently a bulldog, a French bulldog and a basset. Anyone else finding similar, or is it just one of those things?

Note: am posting and running- got to go see daughter performing in her first show with her drama group, but will be back to look at replies later!

[/quote]

We've had a couple recently as well, the one I did 2 weeks ago looked like this: