vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

J G Wray — Sat, 29 Apr 2017 08:07:27 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]As others have said: it is extremely rare for other non obligatory vaccinations to be recorded in the pet passport[/quote]

Not so sure about that, particularly with our clients from Eastern Europe.

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]I have passed the French/British border many times with my dog, and never has anybody there paid any attention to my petpassport other than the rabies vaccination and the praziquantel date[/quote]

ditto but it was my dog's pet passport....I got to visit the nice veterinary surgeon in Calais once because the Eurotunnel officials, not French border officials, were unhappy about a French veterinary surgeons countersignature to a stamp. Post Brexit I suspect the border officials will just be officious rather than mean. Mean is what my in laws experienced at Checkpoint Charlie in the early 1960s. There's nothing quite like German border officials apparently.

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 28 Apr 2017 21:52:59 GMT

As others have said: it is extremely rare for other non obligatory vaccinations to be recorded in the pet passport. I have passed the French/British border many times with my dog, and never has anybody there paid any attention to my petpassport other than the rabies vaccination and the praziquantel date. To be honest, I do not believe that the VDS story happened in reality and i greatly disliked the suggestion made in the article that the French border controls would enjoy and go out of their way to make life difficult for people taking their pet to Brittain, mentioning Brexit as a reason! Although it is typical in the present atmosphere here in the UK re EU countries/officials .

Mariette

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Richard Carter — Fri, 28 Apr 2017 09:49:25 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]he administration of other vaccines at the same time as a rabies vaccination does not render it automatically invalid[/quote]

This is the common sense version and the position we as vets would expect to have support defending.

Since when did anyone working border control show any ability to think outside the 'rules'.

It doesn't help that the vaccine I use has 2 data sheets saying 2 different things - the first the milder 'assess each case' i.e you as professional make a judgement and a second in NOAH stating 'not recommended ..2 weeks before or after' which has taken the decision out of your hands unless you want to contradict the manufacturer. Either way it is poor science on the part of the manufacturer and a legalese cop out of standing behind the product they have sold you and you have bought in good faith.

Either we need to have a recall on all the bottles so they can standardise/ update the data sheet with an information campaign to bring this change to our attention or they need to stand up for their product and support it with proper testing.

No help at all to find out after the event there is a second 'secret' data sheet.

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:09:16 GMT

We use Merial dog vaccines and MSD kennel cough vaccine.....

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Bob Russell — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:29:47 GMT

Or in other words the administration of other vaccines at the same time as a rabies vaccination does not render it automatically invalid. It is therefore not a cause for port staff to delay entry at a border.

Not a very good article in the VDS newsletter really.

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 15:12:55 GMT

I called the VDS and they were really helpful. (I also checked that this was OK to post)

Here's the reply

The position is that if two products are not specifically licensed to be given together, then to give them at the same time is technically unauthorised. As you know products can be administered even if not specifically authorised for use together as long as they are not contraindicated, however informed consent should ideally be gained from the owner and a discussion had as to the implications.

In the case of rabies vaccinations being given alongside certain other products, the risk is that manufacturers might consider that the concurrent administration renders the rabies vaccination invalid. This was the exact situation that led to the claims stimulated by the newsletter story. The best course of action therefore would be to read the datasheets including any online updates and if necessary ask the manufacturer for advice on how best to proceed for their specific products.

Of course it isn’t a legal requirement to record the administration of other vaccines or medicinal products in the Pet Passport in any event and preparing a Passport requires the veterinary surgeon to certify only that they have administered the product, not that it has been effective.

In summary: in an ideal world two vaccines would not be given concurrently but spaced by a minimum of 2 weeks. If they are given together then the owner should be made aware they are not specifically authorised to be administered in this way and the manufacturer’s position; often it is simply that the relevant testing has not been performed but there is no suggestion concurrent use would render either product ineffective.

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Joyce Whitehead — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 14:27:46 GMT

We use MSD vaccines, and checked with them following reading the article. They say all other Nobivac vaccines fine, but no data on KC vaccine so best to leave 2 weeks before giving it.

The vast majority of our passported clients have a separate card for usual boosters and we don't put the standard vaccs in the passport. So it wouldn't be obvious if it happened. I'm astonished anyone picked up on this as why is a border official even checking the other vaccination section as they can travel completely unprotected?

We have changed our protocol though, just in case.

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:52:43 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Is "Discretion" your middle name?[/quote]Funny you should mention it but I was having an email chat with Keith Dickinson about some changes to an article I had written for him which he hadn't spotted and suggested they were too subtle for him to notice. His response was: 'Subtle and Martin Atkinson in the same sentence. There's a first'!

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Richard Carter — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:28:10 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] gave a Versican booster with a rabies shot [/quote]apparently you depending on which source the officials use for the data sheet

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

J G Wray — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:30:30 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] It does state on the newsletter that it is for members only and I suspect that was put there after I did openly discuss a case in a letter to Vet Times a few years ago.[/quote]

Is "Discretion" your middle name?

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:03:21 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Should detail of the VDS advice notes be discussed on a forum like this?[/quote]Don't think we've gone as far as discussing the detail of a case specifically otherwise I would have said similar, its more of a general discussion arising from that. It does state on the newsletter that it is for members only and I suspect that was put there after I did openly discuss a case in a letter to Vet Times a few years ago. However, given the vast majority on here are members it is probably staying pretty well in-house anyway.

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

J G Wray — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 11:54:54 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Sadly I cannot check the content of this story as I've binned my newsletter with little more than a cursory look as I find it more and more like a piece of tabloid journalism and the 'there but for the grace of God go I' moments get less to be replaced why thoughts of 'what an idiot, what do they expect if they do something as stupid as that'.[/quote]

Figures

Should detail of the VDS advice notes be discussed on a forum like this?

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Bob Russell — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 11:25:43 GMT

Vanguard rabies just states use of this vaccine before or after any other veterinary medicinal product needs to be on a case by case basis.

It also states not to mix it with any other vaccine/immunological product.

Does not state it cannot be used at the same time as any other vaccine therefore this would appear to be a non-story. At least with Vanguard there is no reason for anyone to consider the passport invalid.

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Bob Russell — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 11:15:08 GMT

Vaccination against other diseases at the same time is not going to affect the rabies response. We know that because it is acceptable to vaccinate with the same brand at the same time.

This problem is not science, it is nonsense and absolutely not a valid reason to invalidate a pet passport. No surprise that a manufacturer will only test against their own vaccines!

Back in the blood testing days I happily mixed brands (not same syringe!) and not once did I get a rabies titre below the required level.

Couple of things spring to mind, firstly is it just French officials being officious and anti-British, secondly at least they seem to be looking at the passports now!!

Clearly we will be following VDS advice from now on but this does seem to be a case of common sense being replaced with bulls+it!

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Richard Carter — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 11:14:17 GMT

yes Canigen rabies IS nobivac rabies - same vaccine, different label and as you say the insert with the bottle states the milder version of common sense but NOAH 2017 has a more specific 'no other vaccine 2 weeks etc'

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:58:02 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"] So the latest VDS newsletter contains an article about a pet passport being invalidated by the concurrent administration of Kennel cough.[/quote]

What makes we wonder is, who actually spotted this? I truly can't believe that the average border control officer would check or even know the protocol for concurrent vaccination.

Sadly I cannot check the content of this story as I've binned my newsletter with little more than a cursory look as I find it more and more like a piece of tabloid journalism and the 'there but for the grace of God go I' moments get less to be replaced why thoughts of 'what an idiot, what do they expect if they do something as stupid as that'.

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Utlendigur — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:44:22 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Canigen Rabies, which is what I use, and it states that it can actually be used as a diluent for any of their other vaccines but they cannot support its use with any other 'veterinary medicinal product' given concurrently.[/quote]

Pretty similar to the Nobivac data sheet with regard to their vaccines - "No information is available on the safety or efficacy...except with the products mentioned above". But the products do not mention Bordatella, only using the rabies as a diluent for injectable vaccines since you wouldn't give rabies vaccine intranasally, so does that mean it can't be given with kennel cough vaccine full stop. Taken to its a*se-covering extreme, it could mean that any animal on eg nsaids, pimobendan or any other veterinary medicine wouldn't be able to be vaccinated

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:34:12 GMT

I have been aware that it is good practice not vaccinate against rabies within 2 weeks of any other vaccine so this is the advice I give although the data sheets don't state it. Indeed, I just looked at the data sheet for Canigen Rabies, which is what I use, and it states that it can actually be used as a diluent for any of their other vaccines but they cannot support its use with any other 'veterinary medicinal product' given concurrently.

My last locum, who resides in Germany, gave a Versican booster with a rabies shot (although I assume he didn't use it as the diluent) and I've issued the passport - who will be responsible if that one goes tits up?!

RE: vds newsletter - rabies vaccine with other vaccines

Richard Carter — Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:27:05 GMT

and even worse is a legal team that has decided 'recommended' now means 'thou shalt' and the data sheet wins over logic and science