Lidocaine availability for cattle use

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

David Mills — Sun, 30 Apr 2017 01:45:29 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="David Mills"]How many farm vets explicitly and absolutely explain withdrawal to their farm clients?? [/quote]

We do. Periodically produce laminated lists of drug withholds that we give out, including advice on off label use. If I inject or leave anything on farm then I will tell them what the withhold is. It's printed on the dispensing label in addition to the bottle and data sheet.

The sensitivity of the testing varies enormously between products. I know some farmers ignore them, but we always communicate them.

[/quote]

I'm impressed. Genuinely. AFAIK it's not the norm. I remember a job I worked in where the clinical records for farms amounted to drugs dispensed. Mainly by receptionists.

I'm free for a few weeks if you need help with caesaring sheep

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 30 Apr 2017 01:25:39 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]How many farm vets explicitly and absolutely explain withdrawal to their farm clients?? [/quote]

The sensitivity of the testing varies enormously between products. I know some farmers ignore them, but we always communicate them.

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

David Mills — Sun, 30 Apr 2017 01:20:43 GMT

How many farm vets explicitly and absolutely explain withdrawal to their farm clients??

In bulk tank measures they can only pick up if mote than 10% are drugged up.

In meat - 1 in 50 tested if that.

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

bob lehner — Fri, 28 Apr 2017 16:48:30 GMT

[[quote user="bob lehner"]You could therefore use Lignol in other food producing species under the cascade (but you would have to have a 7/28 day withdrawal period for milk/meat). [/quote]

Apologies - mis-information - I've since learned that the EU CVMP advises that Lidocaine has a 15 days withdrawal period for milk and 28 days for meat.

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:55:15 GMT

Procaine is fine for all surgical use in cattle. I sulked a bit when it lost its cow licence and I thought procaine was inferior but is not. No one is putting more than 5ml at a single site - spread it around.

We might call them 'epidural' as we've knicked the name from human medicine but the spinal cord stops in the lumbar region so its not really a proper epidural. I've done 100's of sacro-coxygeal injections of procaine and its fine.

I wouldn't use procaine in horses and I wouldn't use it in the high (lumbo-sacral) epidurals - in those cases I use lignocaine and adrenaline and take the long withdrawal periods.

I thought I would but I don't miss lignocaine.

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Catriona MacIntyre — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:59:40 GMT

I had been using mepivicaine but I see the data sheet says not for use in horses for human consumption, so I guess it's a no no too. :(

Previous to that I had used Willcain

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Iain Richards — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:11:49 GMT

You could use an alpha 2....

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

bob lehner — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:00:02 GMT

[quote user="Busybee"]So in a calving that turns into a caesar, would we be using Lignol for the epidural, then Willcain for the local block?? Or continue with Lignol for the block as it's already in the animal so the meat/milk withdrawals can be stated?[/quote]

Who knows!

Willcain -

'Cattle and horses: 2.0 to 5.0 ml

Do not exceed the recommended dosage.'

'Lignol - 50 mls max for a horse by infiltration, or 10 ml per nerve for paravertebral'.

I guess most people would stick with the Lignol.

(If you were an optimist you could of course ask the VMD to advise you...!).

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Busybee — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:02:42 GMT

It's just a headache! It's a shame when it comes down to 'which one am I less likely to get into trouble for using?' rather than an actual clinical decision.

So in a calving that turns into a caesar, would we be using Lignol for the epidural, then Willcain for the local block?? Or continue with Lignol for the block as it's already in the animal so the meat/milk withdrawals can be stated?

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

bob lehner — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 17:31:49 GMT

[quote user="Busybee"]Willcain, as it's licensed for cattle but has a specific contraindication against epidurals , or Lignol as even though it's not licensed, there's no specific contraindication against epidurals[/quote]

Just shows what a therapeutic challenge the cascade can produce.

Lignol is not licensed for cattle or sheep, but is licensed for horses, with a zero day meat withdrawal period. (Lidocaine and epinephrine are on the EU 37/2010 MRL list for equidae).

You could therefore use Lignol in other food producing species under the cascade (but you would have to have a 7/28 day withdrawal period for milk/meat).

Lignol is not licensed for epidural use - but lidocaine and adrenaline are licensed in other countries for epidural use - so presumably quite safe!

Same sort of problems arise with ketamine - where there are five different products marketed in the UK by different companies - all 100 mg/ml - but variously licensed for a range of different species - some say not to be ever use in food producing animals, whilst other have a zero or 1 day meat withdrawal period.

It's a mess.

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Busybee — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:26:12 GMT

We have both Willcain and Lignol on the shelf. Which is the preferred one? Willcain, as it's licensed for cattle but has a specific contraindication against epidurals , or Lignol as even though it's not licensed, there's no specific contraindication against epidurals? I have to say, I've always used Lignol which seems to work perfectly well.

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Emily Rainbow — Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:33:47 GMT

I use Lignol for epidurals.

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Seadna — Tue, 11 Apr 2017 20:44:24 GMT

Yeah Rachel, I remember I pointed the epidural contraindication out to a boss in my first job when I was fresh out of university. Says he "oh don't worry, you are giving EXTRAdural injections, not EPIdurals"

I believed him :/ :D

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Beats — Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:59:45 GMT

[quote user="Rachel Brown "]However it is specifically contraindicated on the datasheet for epidural use[/quote]

use Pronestesic (if it's available in Ireland) which doesn't have that contraindication.

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Rachel Brown — Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:58:48 GMT

Thanks Iain for the link.

Hi Beats. I would prefer to use Lidocaine so I am just enquiring if anyone has used any other company's version.

Apologies for any typos/grammar but on my phone and cannot get the text box to scroll.

Rachel

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Beats — Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:48:14 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]

The contraindication is, i understand, due the metabisulphite preservative. Letter form Mark Wessels in 2007 http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/vr.161.13.459-a

Lidocaine produces a metabolite that has questions regarding its carcinogenic properties, although this is disputed.

[/quote]

The upshot is that milk should be witheld for 15 days rather than the 7 usually done for non-licensed drug (28days for meat still fine) see: http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/Report/2015/04/WC500186090.pdf for up-to-date dsicussion on the sciencein cattle.

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Iain Richards — Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:39:11 GMT

The contraindication is, i understand, due the metabisulphite preservative. Letter form Mark Wessels in 2007 http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/vr.161.13.459-a

Lidocaine produces a metabolite that has questions regarding its carcinogenic properties, although this is disputed.

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Rachel Brown — Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:08:55 GMT

Thanks Seadna that is good to know. However it is specifically contraindicated on the datasheet for epidural use and has a max dose 3-5ml! I suppose you could get consent off the farmer prior to use. Just concerned about litigation if anything went wrong with it's use. http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/productinformationdatabase/SPC_Documents/SPC_111238.DOC

Rachel

RE: Lidocaine availability for cattle use

Seadna — Tue, 11 Apr 2017 18:39:59 GMT

We use procaine here including for epidural. Haven't had an issue with it that I know of...