Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Anthony Todd — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 14:49:54 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]That is very helpful,[/quote]

Just to be clear, an initial jab of your favourite short-acting steroid is important diagnostically, therapeutically, and gives faith and confidence to you and the owner.that you are on the right track.

Then go on to your 1mg/Kg, more or less, as and when necessary, while your flea control and other measures, if not fleas, gets going.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 14:30:11 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

The key thing, as I have tried to get across since forever, is to give pred orally, or your favourite short-acting corticosteroid, in as low a dose as possible and as infrequently as possible.

The dose can be titrated by most owners eventually when they get the idea.

[/quote]

That is very helpful, and I think is actually similar to what most vets do, it's certainly similar to what I do. I tend to find that a high dose of prednisolone (1mg/kg) initially gets quick resolution, and then reasonably quickly start to reduce the dose and frequency to find the lowest dose/longest interval that controls the problem. I do think some people are too cautious and don't give a high enough dose to start with and then find that it takes longer to get things under control.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Anthony Todd — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:30:28 GMT

[quote user="Lesley Strong"]Completely denuded front legs[/quote]

This pattern, IMHExperience, is never ever seen in allergic skin disease and would satisfy me of a psycho cause.

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]is what dose rate, i.e mg/kg, you used to use, and how often you would expect clients to need to give it, I know there would be some variation but are you talking days or weeks?[/quote]

The key thing, as I have tried to get across since forever, is to give pred orally, or your favourite short-acting corticosteroid, in as low a dose as possible and as infrequently as possible.

The dose can be titrated by most owners eventually when they get the idea.

Simply, because if you use any sort of continuous dose of any steroid you, and the owner, will never know you're on the right track [99/100 it's fleas] and the allergen contact may be intermittent [visiting grandma with the dog, I know, but the principle is the same]

Of course if the reaction has progressed to secondary "lick granulomata" then a longer acting Csteroid like Dmed or Ovarid is needed 'cos any minor skin disruption will perpetuate the irritation until completely healed.

Sorry, turbo again, but you did ask and the problem keeps returning on the forum.I've seen so many of these back in the day 'cos flea control was very poor with the stuff we had then.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Lesley Strong — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:09:55 GMT

Yes it does occur rarely. Burmese cat few years ago Completely denuded front legs and ripped out claws Skin work up and every drug on the shelf including ovard Nothing worked then owner mentioned had mentally disturbed teenage foster child. Minute child went back into care cat stopped attacking itself and all he hair and claws grew back. I know anecdote but sometimes they are true!

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 09:59:49 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]If a good response then oral pred single dose only as necessary while everyone searches for the allergen; food would be number 2.[/quote]

We've discussed the use of steroids to control the symptoms of allergic skin disease before, and I think most people agree that they have an important role to play, but there has been some disagreement as to the best way of giving them. You have advocated single doses as necessary, but what I wonder, and you may have answered this before, is what dose rate, i.e mg/kg, you used to use, and how often you would expect clients to need to give it, I know there would be some variation but are you talking days or weeks?

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Anthony Todd — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 04:35:41 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Sorry, but I have never been convinced of its validity. Inadequate flea therapy seems far, far more likely to me.[/quote]

Yep. 99/100 and Ovarid was overkill as it lasted too long! A dex jab should give a total initial response in any feline allergic derm. If no or minimal response then it isn't an allergy but I can't recall one that didn't respond ie never "psychogenic".

If a good response then oral pred single dose only as necessary while everyone searches for the allergen; food would be number 2.

These days, with excellent early flea control, most of them would respond in a week and continue OK if the owner could understand "regular"....

Sorry for the turbo but the message is hard to get through now that "stress" covers every feline condition......

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 23:13:02 GMT

Julian Earl you've had nearly a year to consider your reply, I was hoping for more!

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Julian Earl — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 23:00:53 GMT

At risk of insulting everyone who is certain of this diagnosis, I am yet to be convinced that it is not just a "dustbin diagnosis" too easy to blame when a difficult dermatitis caused by food allergy or simply inadequate flea therapy has been passed over. Sorry, but I have never been convinced of its validity. Inadequate flea therapy seems far, far more likely to me.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Bob Russell — Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:05:35 GMT

Not used Ovarid for years. I fully accept that it did have steroid effects but I am quite sure it had created behaviour changes, presumably hormonal, that made it work better in some cats than corticosteroids alone.

I believe most are flea related but some do have anal sac problems that seem to exacerbate the problem. We are pretty hot on parasite control (I have been accused of being obsessed!) but we find very few of these cases and few of those need ongoing/constant treatment.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Anthony Todd — Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:50:59 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Removing the triggers: i.e. good flea control and some behavioural counselling works [/quote]

See what I mean!!

Try just removing the trigger, ie flea control, skip the counselling, give the cat instant relief with safe sensible steroid use and your psycho cat will, amazingly be fine for ever more......

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:43:25 GMT

Neutering is such a routine nowadays that it is becoming difficult to compare neutered and entire cats of a similar population. I don't think comparing neutered housecats with stray unneutered RSPCA cats is the best. What about breeding queens and tomcats? "Miliary dermatitis" seen in those? I am not of the "hormone deficiency" theory, but just curious, because I have only seen the typical sign s in neutered cats.

The other thing is that since fewer bitches are left entire in the UK, i wonder if people (vets) are familiar with the real difference in behaviour in bitches during theior cycles. The progesteron phase is a period of them being a lot "duller", less energetic, sort of content and lazy. I think progesteron has more effects than just steroid antipruritic. At least it would not surprise me.

Mariette

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Julian Earl — Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:23:33 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]Has anybody seen "miliary dermatitis" in entire cats?[/quote]

Yes, lots of stray, scabby cats at the RSPCA shelter.

[/quote]

Yes I have, on thinking about historic cases. There are other reasons why entire cats are presented less frequently than neutered ones.

. Miliary dermatitis might be less frequent in cats that are outdoor cats,eg ferals, and generally exposed more frequently to fleas. Am I correct in believing that intermittent exposure to an allergen is associated with the greater risk of allergy developing? But in other words if a cat is a household cat it might be exposed less often plus is more likely to be brought to see us, including for neutering as well of course?

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Chris Milligan — Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:39:33 GMT

Or until the owner gives up caring about the problem. I

think you're confused about what behavioural alopecia is - talking about triggers suggests the cause is inflammatory.

Likewise if you've never had to use cyclosporine one could also say seek and ye shall find - there's definitely cases out there that would benefit if you're not using it.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:10:22 GMT

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]Every time I've wondered if it was the biopsy comes back as a lymphoplasmacytic infiltrate and has responded to atopica after 4 weeks[/quote]I suspect that is an inflammatory reaction to the grooming rather than the cause. We are talking about cats with just a lick ventral allopecia with no inflammatory lesions. Removing the triggers: i.e. good flea control and some behavioural counselling works without recourse to potentially toxic drugs like cyclosporin - I've never had to use that in my career for skin problems in cats or dogs for that matter. In most cases it requires no treatment at all so long as the owners understand that it is just the cat's way of coping with stress and is essentially harmless.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Chris Milligan — Tue, 28 Mar 2017 02:19:07 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Seek and ye shall find. Psychogenic grooming is incredibly common,[/quote]

It's not for lack of looking I can assure you. I skin biopsy and do a comprehensive derm workup on many more cases than my colleagues seem to. Every time I've wondered if it was the biopsy comes back as a lymphoplasmacytic infiltrate and has responded to atopica after 4 weeks

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Anthony Todd — Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:30:09 GMT

There's this:

Medical causes of pruritus [itchiness] were identified in 16 (76%) cats. Only 2 (10%) cats were found to have only psychogenic alopecia, and an additional 3 (14%) cats had a combination of psychogenic alopecia and a medical cause of pruritus. An adverse food reaction was diagnosed in 12 (57%) cats and was suspected in an additional 2. All cats with histologic evidence of inflammation in skin biopsy specimens were determined to have a medical condition, but of 6 cats without histologic abnormalities, 4 had an adverse food reaction, atopy[environmental allergy], or a combination of the 2, and only 2 had psychogenic alopecia.

er, only 10% so not "incredibly common" as others have claimed.... and this is after a non-response to steroids too!

from this:

Source:

Underlying medical conditions in cats with presumptive psychogenic alopecia. Waisglass SE, Landsberg GM, Yager JA, Hall JA. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006 Jun 1;228(11):1705-9.

But, interesting to me, they use a shot of steroid and the response [negative!] as a diagnostic aid whereas mine always responded or I would have known about it, I think??

It may be that, over the years and with the change of cats' lifestyle, this condition has become much more common.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Anthony Todd — Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:19:59 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]I have never diagnosed psychogenic grooming[/quote]

Sorry Julian couldn't get rid of the one star which was a finger fumble.

There are references to it [Google has >16000 and even in Wikipedia, no less but, as in a lot of so called cases, they usually reinforce flea control "in case"....

All I can say and I've seen a lot, mine have all responded to steroids and allergen removal.

I have never had one that didn't so. naturally, I am sceptical.

Sure, they may have gone elsewhere, but I would have had feedback [clients loved to tell you were wrong and that lovely vet down the road sorted it.....]

Of course it may be a new condition; need more anecdotal evidence!!!

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Anthony Todd — Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:04:16 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Ovarid have been used for this since the seventies I believe and the vet I worked for then as a teenager claimed to have done the trial work. But the price paid by becoming obese and even diabeticis too hifgh in my opininion![/quote]

The key with any "steroid", including Ovarid is, as I keep repeating to little avail,to use only as necessary and therefore intermittently.

ALL the gruesome side effects are only ever seen when that drug family is used continuously which many vets don't seem to realise, certainly some posters on here......

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 24 Mar 2017 11:13:18 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]Has anybody seen "miliary dermatitis" in entire cats?[/quote]

Yes, lots of stray, scabby cats at the RSPCA shelter.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Emily Rainbow — Fri, 24 Mar 2017 10:58:17 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

BTW I wonder if anyone has seen FAD in an entire male or female cat?

[/quote]

Yep, had a kittening queen in last year as a stray. Had FAD, but was crawling in them.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Mar 2017 10:48:19 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]How anyone could not associate this new diagnosis of "ventral lick alopecia" with simple flea dermatitis [call it what you like ] even when fleas are present is beyond my comprehension.[/quote]There's nothing new about it Anthony, stress related obsessive grooming disorders have been recognised for eons, most are not associated with FAD and steroids do not help or if they do its is more to do with the euphoric effect rather than any anti-inflammatory action.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]BTW I wonder if anyone has seen FAD in an entire male or female cat?[/quote]. FFS, how many times do we have to go through this?!

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Anthony Todd — Fri, 24 Mar 2017 09:12:06 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]This brings us back to the myth that miliary dermatitis is hormona[/quote]

Nobody has believed that since the Ovarid debacle or before.

How anyone could not associate this new diagnosis of "ventral lick alopecia" with simple flea dermatitis [call it what you like ] even when fleas are present is beyond my comprehension.

I accept that a non-steroid responsive licking behaviour doesn't fit any allergic picture and may be behavioural as is postulated.

Just that I've never seen it ever; they've all been steroid responsive.

By this I mean that after a jab of a short-acting steroid the dramatic response has always been within 12 hours, with or without the physical signs of fleas.

This satisfied me of an allergic aetiology and the elimination of the cause, almost always fleas somewhere, even if no evidence found, stopped the signs permanently.

BTW I wonder if anyone has seen FAD in an entire male or female cat?

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:50:16 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

Has anybody seen "miliary dermatitis" in entire cats?

Does neutering make cats more prone to allergies?

Mariette

[/quote]This brings us back to the myth that miliary dermatitis is hormonal: the vast majority of cats are neutered, treating them with Ovarid resolved the condition therefore must be hormonal QED. As said before, I thought we were a bit more enlightened today.

For the benefit of Anthony: I saw 2 cats with ventral lick allopecia yesterday, one also had FAD which was exacerbating it, both had behavioural/stress issues on careful questioning of the owner which they would not have admitted if not asked directly.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Emily Rainbow — Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:29:10 GMT

Whilst I appreciate the reminder of all the side-effects/contraindications that doesn't help when I have clients wanting the treatment regardless of any warnings.

i also don't think these cats are actually pruritic as 'normal' steroids should help, but don't show any improvement at all. (I'm talking about the ones that come in with bald groins/abdomens with no gross lesions and normal on routine skin work up).

I'll discuss biopsies with the next one I see along with amitryptilline/clomipramine/progesterone. Almost all of our feline patients are neutered.

RE: Overgrooming cats without Ovarid

Anthony Todd — Thu, 23 Mar 2017 22:35:16 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]~Neutering has no effect I think.[/quote]

You'd think not but , not that entire cats, male or female, are common, I can't recall an entire male of female with anything I'd call. or suspect, allergic or psychogenic or any other form of non-infectious skin disease.

Must be some?????