Dying snakes - ideas please!

RE: Dying snakes - ideas please!

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sun, 12 Feb 2017 21:32:14 GMT

The silly sod will have no snakes left at this rate. they must be worth a proper work up to see what he's up against !

RE: Dying snakes - ideas please!

Sheryl Calway — Sun, 12 Feb 2017 13:09:04 GMT

update!

owner has just rung to tell me 2 other snakes are now showing respiratory signs - I've advised working them up...we'll see if he agrees.....!

I've convinced him to instigate hygiene/quarantine measures asap and ensure husbandry is A1....any specific nursing i should be considering..?

RE: Dying snakes - ideas please!

Sheryl Calway — Sun, 12 Feb 2017 11:52:55 GMT

Thanks ladies....i think your responses were great....yes, I'd been left feeling that somehow I had not done enough to help....when, in fact, my hands have been so tied that I couldn't have done anymore.

This, combined with my extreme desire to gain as much experience as possible, has had me spending lots of time out of work putting effort in, when I'm not convinced I was really getting a fair amount given back by the client. I will learn from this!!

With regard to your suggestion of doing things at cut price Gillian....my husband and I co-own the practice so I had his full backing on this already and (as this client has a big collection)...his work was already being done incredibly cheaply as it is!!!

Thanks again for all your advice, greatly appreciated!!

RE: Dying snakes - ideas please!

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 11 Feb 2017 22:17:42 GMT

Sorry to hear the snake died Sheryl - a real shame you didn't get a chance to scan/FNA that mass/fluid.

[quote user="Sheryl Calway"]Do you think there is anything prophylactically I could do with the rest of the collection/environment, to aid diagnosis/protect others?[/quote]

Seriously - if the owner wants an answer, or to prevent further deaths, he has to let you do a proper investigation - which would have had to include a PM on the dead snake. You are falling into the trap of trying to figure out what the problem with almost no information, which is what many exotic owners want you to do but which is impossible. I understand your frustration- you desperately want to help these critters and increase your experience - but you simply can't do it without the support of their owner. In fact, the more time and effort you put in for free, the more they come to expect it. (We have to charge for telephone consultations these days, as we get so many people, who aren't clients, ring up for lengthy conversations for advice! Even though reception tell them that we can't diagnose or treat anything over the phone, that's all they want!)

If it is a cost issue, but you really want more chance to practice your techniques, try offering these procedures at a reduced cost (if the boss is happy with that) and tell the client it is a training exercise for the practice - I used to do this at first. In fact, I offered a free PM to a client who presented a moribund snake last week, as our new VN is really interested in reptiles and was really keen to watch. (I would never carry out a procedure without the permission of the client, obviously.)

RE: Dying snakes - ideas please!

Sheryl Calway — Sat, 11 Feb 2017 21:52:19 GMT

Yes, i'm beginning to get that impression...I'm desperate to gain as much experience as possible...yet it's proving difficult to get!

I really appreciate your advice!

Do you think there is anything prophylactically I could do with the rest of the collection/environment, to aid diagnosis/protect others?

Thanks again

RE: Dying snakes - ideas please!

Marie Kubiak — Sat, 11 Feb 2017 21:29:44 GMT

It looks like there is some fluid around the lungs. I can't see a clear cardiac silhouette- could the swelling be cardiac in origin? It is weird that the trachea is displaced ventrally though, usually the heart pushes it dorsally. Post-mortem would definitely have been interesting!

[quote user="Sheryl Calway"]It is really frustrating that the owner hasn't permitted post mortem examination of the other two (yes, olive pythons, sorry for my silly error!), yet he still wants me to give advice....![/quote]

Yep, that is 99% of reptile practice sadly.

Marie

RE: Dying snakes - ideas please!

Sheryl Calway — Sat, 11 Feb 2017 20:24:55 GMT

Hi Marie, thank you so much for your detailed reply. I wasn't sure whether, without neurological signs, inclusion body disease could still be a possibility? Ophidian paramyxovirus makes sense too. It is really frustrating that the owner hasn't permitted post mortem examination of the other two (yes, olive pythons, sorry for my silly error!), yet he still wants me to give advice....!

RE: Dying snakes - ideas please!

Sheryl Calway — Sat, 11 Feb 2017 20:19:36 GMT

RE: Dying snakes - ideas please!

Marie Kubiak — Sat, 11 Feb 2017 18:15:50 GMT

Ophidian paramyxovirus or Inclusion body disease would be high on my list of differentials (Assuming they are olive pythons, not aware of an olive viper species) but unfortunately lots of diseases can cause immunosuppression and high mortality. OPMV fits symptoms better as it has a heavy respiratory component but IBD can cause massive immunosuppression in pythons. Primary bacterial infection with Aeromonas is unusual, it is usually a secondary invader.

Often these syndromes are multifactorial with poor temperature control, many snakes crammed in rack systems and poor ventilation exacerbating infectious disease.

Can you post rads to show the oesophageal mass? Could be cardiac, GI or respiratory in location.

If the owner won't let you work this up properly you won't be able to give them answers! You really need to get samples from a sick animal for virology (lung wash, pharyngeal swab and serum to test for OPMV and IBD) or even better a freshly deceased/euthanased affected animal for post-mortem and histology.

Marie