endo/exoparasite control in a dog

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Bob Russell — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 18:08:01 GMT

If you ask Bayer for a paper from Medical and Veterinary Entomology 2010 Large-scale monitoring of imidacloprid susceptibilityin the cat flea, Ctenocephalides felis

then you will see the answer is yes!

The paper is copyrighted so I don't think I can reproduce them here. All the papers are quite a number of years old and things do change over time! I would have said until recently that failures of imidocloprid are mainly environmental and or owner compliance.

The recent failures do not seem to fit in with either of these failures IMO.

Once again! If we are the only practice finding failures then it is more likely this is environmental/owner or even a dodgy batch.

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Rob Loxley — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:42:40 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Resistance involves a change to the genetic make up. Intermittent/inappropriate use of a product would logically increase the risk of it occurring.[/quote]

Has anyone shown true resistance to currently available flea treatments in standard household fleas (as opposed to weird multi-resistant labs strains)? Given the size and competitiveness of the market, I would assume that if this could be shown then competitors would be shouting loudly about this, rather than the current insinuations?

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Bob Russell — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:02:47 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]As vets perhaps we should be refusing to sell valuable parasite products to clients that fail to use them properly. I already do, providing Advantage/Advantix for those unwilling to comply adequately.[/quote]

I'm not understanding how using imidacloprid in advantage or advantix might reduce any potential resistance to imidacloprid in seresto (or indeed advocate).
My main issues with imidacloprid are that it is non systemic-acting so is prone to washing off (dogs that swim or bathed regularly) and it sometimes struggles to diffuse from the site of application to the site of fleas on the pet?

[/quote]

I am not saying that use of a spot on is likely to change resistance issues with imidocloprid. It is already being massively misused and I cannot see that the argument is whether resistance will emerge but when! Is this the early stage of problems or are we unique?

I consider imidocloprid to be 'disposable' as a spot on as anyone can pick it up in the local supermarket. I want to try to preserve the efficacy of the newer products for as long as possible.

Resistance involves a change to the genetic make up. Intermittent/inappropriate use of a product would logically increase the risk of it occurring.

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:48:38 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]My main issues with imidacloprid are that it is non systemic-acting so is prone to washing off [/quote]Hmmm....does this mean I need a major re-think? I had always assumed that this was not the case and it was a major advantage over surface actors like Fipronil because it was absorbed transdermally and acted systemically. Am I going to re-think my ideas on Stronghold as well?

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Rob Loxley — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:26:34 GMT

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Bob Russell — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:56:31 GMT

Bayer have sent me a number of documents supporting the lack of resistance to imidocloprid. Sadly most go back years!

I am really suspicious that we are seeing the start of problems. Not helped by unsupervised availability of imidocloprid in pet shops and supermarkets.

I agree Seresto is a good product but is this the start of problems?

Bayer seem completely reliant on imidocloprid so they are going to be a little upset should fleas start to survive it!

We provide a package of Nexguard spectra and Veloxa so parasite control is pretty much covered.

As vets perhaps we should be refusing to sell valuable parasite products to clients that fail to use them properly. I already do, providing Advantage/Advantix for those unwilling to comply adequately. Had we been more responsible as a profession perhaps fipronil would still be useful and not just an egg additive!

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:38:35 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

I have just started seeing the odd cat with fleas despite regular advocate.....is it becoming the new frontline?

[/quote]Same here with Stronghold. I would like to believe its poor compliance and/or an exceptional flea season because otherwise if there is cross-product resistance we're in trouble. Program injections still seem to work in cats though.

[quote user="Iain Richards"]There is a tendancy for SA vets to want a single product to treat all parasites (entirely understandable in a cat!)[/quote]I don't think we actually want this, it is client driven, they want the convenience of one product and as we all know there isn't one. It does make we wonder why someone hasn't managed this given we are pretty close with a couple of products.

Thomas' post which was verified, albeit possibly more tongue in cheek than seriously, provides the answer but would most clients comply with this? Otherwise we are forced to at least double-up with products hitting one or more of the problems twice.

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Iain Richards — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:17:47 GMT

Me too. There is another thread related to this.

I find it interesting to read some of the posts here (and elsewhere in the vet world) on parasite control in small animals and comparing it to farm animals. Three observations:

1. There is a tendancy for SA vets to want a single product to treat all parasites (entirely understandable in a cat!)

2. There is, or seems to be, a real lack of understanding of a) how products work and b) the parasites themselves

3. There is an absolute lack of evidence regarding the efficacy of products. Reports of failure to work are largely observation or anecdote and we simply move on to the next product. Which is again understandable with a client in front of you and an itchy cat.

In the LA world, there is a better awareness of resistance to antiparasiticides, not least because there are fewer products and the market for new ones is smaller (food safety issues). It would be good to see BSAVA pick this one up and improve understanding in practices. Lest this be felt to be SA vet bashing, I'll add that, sadly, plenty of LA vets are below par in their understanding too. In offering solutions rather than problems, I'd be happy to liase with BSAVA on this.

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Kate Richardson — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 22:42:51 GMT

I have just started seeing the odd cat with fleas despite regular advocate.....is it becoming the new frontline?

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 18:46:36 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

The only ones I can recall presenting with problems are those where the collar is dangling like a necklace - I presume there has to be reasonable contact with the skin to be effective. Generally a popular product with us, but at the price of each individual collar can see why clients would be upset if not working!

[/quote]

I think Seresto is a good product and I would also wonder about how well the collar was fitted, we see a number of dogs where owners have put it on too loosely and the diffusion onto the skin isn't going to be good enough for it to be effective.

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 18:06:44 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"] I presume there has to be reasonable contact with the skin to be effective.[/quote]This is always the limitation with collars and one reason we don't use them.

Having long been a staunch advocate of erm....Advocate because we do have a problem with lungworm, since Nexguard Spectra was launched I am veering towards that as my go to. This is also because a number of people have noted that their dogs don't like Advocate being applied and a few have reported skin reactions. There is still no single product that covers all eventualities but having seen a disproportionate number of ticks recently (we used to rarely see them) I've felt a need to cover them and given I've not seen a case of Sarcoptes in yonks and Advocate isn't hot on Demodex, although there will be a number who can't give/dog won't eat tablets, Nexguard Spectra seems like the best compromise.

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 17:18:06 GMT

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Bob Russell — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 16:56:41 GMT

Resurrecting a previous thread!

We have had a number of dogs being presented with fleas despite regular and routine use of Seresto. Some have been hooching and plastered with flea faeces. Getting a number of complaints!

Bayer are stating absolutely that imidocloprid is not a problem and there is no resistance to it.

I am very aware of the flea lifecycle and the potential weaknesses and complications associated with owner compliance, in contact pets and also the toughness of pupae etc.

I have taken all this into account and cannot find any reason why the particular patients are having this problem.

The weather has been ideal for fleas but again I am factoring this in.

Is this the only practice seeing this problem or are others having issues as well?

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Bob Russell — Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:33:41 GMT

Praziquantel can trigger vomiting any way. These dogs remain well and apparently do not need the dose repeated.

Strangely we have had dogs vomit on drontal but not milbemax so not really clear why one should differ from the other.

If in doubt speak to Ronan Fitzgerald at Bayer, if he says don't use it then don't use it! Milbemax data sheet suggests it is a combination that is not advised but one trial showed no apparent problem.

We use Nexguard Spectra and Veloxa as our first choice in dogs. Unlike some reps comments it would appear it is still going through licencing for lungworm prevention (Merial rep yesterday).

Veloxa given on a different day because you don't want an expensive tablet vomited up if there is a reaction to Praziquantel!

Edit Simperica and monthly milbemycin if you can negotiate a good price for the milbemycin product. This combination is fully licensed!

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Lindsey Edwards — Fri, 20 Jan 2017 21:06:43 GMT

advantix or seresto and panacur?

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:00:40 GMT

Anibody for using a metoclopromide tablet before using advocate?

Mariette

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

ruths — Thu, 12 Jan 2017 06:53:57 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

I have no idea. It wasn't a case that we were involved in (at least not to my knowledge)

I assume this info came from Bayer, I've just copied and pasted the info I was given. I can ask my source! Could be scaremongering? Might be worth a call to Bayer from several different people to see if it's accurate or a call to VDS?

[/quote]

why would you use the combination of milbemax and advocate anywa?

The two drugs have the same spectrum of activity except that milbemax has praziquantel in it vs tapeworm.

Why not give advocate and droncit?

not for this case- I know tick control is needed too.

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Eilidh Corr — Thu, 12 Jan 2017 00:32:04 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]panacea for roundworm should work.[/quote]

Best autocorrect of the week - made me

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Iain Richards — Tue, 10 Jan 2017 10:34:13 GMT

What are the parasitic risks and exposure of the animal? I'd start there and look to a solution (although Thomas' is fine). If fleas are controlled by Bravecto and it doesn't eat raw meat, it has no tapeworm risk (assumed no traveller). Is lungworm a definite problem in your area? If not then bravest for fleas and ticks and panacea for roundworm should work.

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Kate Richardson — Mon, 09 Jan 2017 22:19:26 GMT

I have no idea. It wasn't a case that we were involved in (at least not to my knowledge)

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 09 Jan 2017 22:02:46 GMT

Mmm

This should be flagged as I haven't heard this and it's used a lot in combination in practices I have worked in

Was the VDS case successful, that's the crux of this and what happened to the dog?

Neil

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Kate Richardson — Mon, 09 Jan 2017 21:58:35 GMT

Neil Wheadon

recent info obtained by one of my colleagues:

"We have had a client request Milbemax for use with Advocate as dog vomits on droncit and ? drontal . She has been advised to give Milbemax two weeks after advocate. I have spokent to Bayer and the 2 products should not be given together it is contraindicated there have been cases where the VDS are involved. Milbemax can only be given after Advocate is out of the system ie 1 month , I have spoken to Novartis/Elanco and Milbemax officially stays 5-7 days in system so there must be a 7 day gap before application of next advocate. If a client requests use together consider signing an off license form to show o has been advised of risks."

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 09 Jan 2017 21:15:30 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]Neil Wheadon advocate and milbemax shouldn't be used together[/quote]

Yes, but it's safe to use 2 weeks apart as I said in the post

The query is how close together can you use them? A partner at one place had asked a rep and he said 48 hours apart. The hassle is the companies won't vouch for each others product

Neil

My favourite is Bravecto and Milbemax

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Viki Ayres — Mon, 09 Jan 2017 21:07:56 GMT

thank you all some great ideas

RE: endo/exoparasite control in a dog

Viki Ayres — Mon, 09 Jan 2017 21:06:36 GMT

as a puppy he reacted to milbemax so this was stopped, and now he vomits after every advocate dose!