Reporting a Cat which has been shot

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

James Dunne — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 14:23:10 GMT

'I presume you didn't give me one star James':

most certainly not, unless I clicked on it unintentionally. I've given your comment 5 stars now just to be sure! I find the star rating thing interesting; wonder why it's anonymous when the 'like' button reveals one's identity?

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 13:31:15 GMT

[quote user="James Dunne"]Thanks, Martin. I would change that so to 'encourage the owner to report[/quote]I presume you didn't give me one star James. I can't see what I said for 'red-star man' to give me one.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

James Dunne — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 11:14:14 GMT

Hi Michael. I would agree with most of your sentiments, but would suggest that air-rifles are only a 'safe way of introducing kids to guns' if instruction in their use is given the same weight as instruction in the use of shotguns and rifles. As for cars killing far more cats than air-rifles, one would hope that people are not wilfully and intentionally using cars for that purpose! You cannot legally drive a car without passing a test of competency either. No-one is talking about banning a useful tool, but regulation of the purchase of air rifles and enforcing structured instruction in their use prior to ownership might prevent immature use of same.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

James Dunne — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 10:57:29 GMT

Thanks, Martin. I would change that so to 'encourage the owner to report'...mind you, in a certain context, the incident might be seen as being within the public interest, if you are concerned regarding the breach of client confidentiality reporting it would entail.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 10:44:09 GMT

[quote user="James Dunne"]My advice to you is to report this incident and leave it in the hands of the police. Regardless of the experiences of others in relation to police follow-up, not to report this ensures that the perpetrator is free to repeat the offence, or to use a human target next.[/quote]I agree regarding reporting the incident, it just not the responsibility of the vet, the victim needs to do it - obviously in this case the victim's owner! There are likely to be a number of questions the vet cannot answer relating to locality, time etc.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 10:17:55 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

They come in all sorts of different "powers".

They are not firearms. (Though those producing over a certain muzzle energy – I can't remember what it is, Michael may know – you would probably call them "high-powered" – are legally classed as "firearms" and require a Firearms Certificate for possession).

The ones of lower "power" are excellent for introducing young people to shooting in a proper, correct and safe manner, and then also to accuracy.

[/quote]

Actually they are firearms, in a legal sense, they just don't need any sort of licence if an air rifle produces less than 12foot pounds of energy when fired. I can quite assure any of you that around that level they are a very effective tool and more than capable of killing rats, pigeons, rabbits. They are vastly safer if used in agricultural buildings (if you miss with a .22 rifle the bullet sort of chases you around). Higher powered weapons do require a licence, but rifles exist that are capable of killing very large animals.

The last point is important - guns are not intrinsically dangerous. Air rifles are a relatively safe way of introducing kids to guns, and teaching them useful life skills. I suspect the people shooting cats are not the ones who had the gun bought by their father and were taught how to use it properly and responsibly. If you throw in a need and cost for a licence then that won't happen anywhere near as much as it does now. I had a few when I was young (still have 1 spinger).

Cars kills far more cats, should we ban them too? Lets not over react. Air rifles are useful, effective, pretty safe and not going to get you.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

James Dunne — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 10:14:12 GMT

Hi All

Some interesting observations.

I come from a different jurisdiction but did work in the UK for 6 years, so may have some useful input. I also worked for a year in a gun shop prior to vet school, not in the UK though, so our laws have some differences. In Ireland, air rifles are classed the same way as rifles - they are firearms and you need a licence to purchase and own one. I think this is a more sensible way of categorising these weapons because, contrary to views already expressed, they are quite capable of lethality. I was presented with 3 cats with airgun injuries in my 6 years in urban UK [near Reading]. One of our staff members was also shot in the head with an airgun while walking down the street [reported in a local paper at the time]. She was not fatally injured thankfully, but her experience would leave you under no illusion as to the potential danger inherent in these weapons. Since returning to Ireland, I have not seen one animal presented with an airgun injury as far as I can remember, but have seen a small number of dogs with shotgun injuries usually because of a farmer protecting livestock. We also see a number of dogs each year with ingrained shotgun pellets picked up on radiography as an incidental finding. The point is, that any gun has the potential for either lethality or to inflict serious injury without actually being fatal. Making it a deal to own the weapon [i.e. requiring licensing and instrument competence via a training course] might make such incidents less likely. As an aside, I have a relative in the UK who works in a firearms unit with the police. They get about 2 calls per day [yes, per day!] relating to people brandishing firearms, many of which turn out to be either replicas or airguns. Taking such items off the street or at least regulating them more strictly might a) save a lot of taxpayers money given the resources that are deployed to such incidents and b) might save some troubled individual's life given that armed police cannot always tell the difference between replicas and the real thing and we know where that can lead. My advice to you is to report this incident and leave it in the hands of the police. Regardless of the experiences of others in relation to police follow-up, not to report this ensures that the perpetrator is free to repeat the offence, or to use a human target next. As for ballistics - if you can keep the pellet and it is not significantly deformed and the weapon it was fired from can be identified, then it might be useful. Again I would pass it to the police; it is not going to do any good sitting in a jar in the surgery. They may find it of some use if there are repeated similar incidences.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 09:48:52 GMT

Every time someone escapes punishment for a crime they have committed, it is a gross miscarriage of justice

Wynne

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Tim Browning — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 09:33:50 GMT

I was an 'expert' witness thirty years ago where a dog was shot with an air rifle pellet. It died on presentation. PM revealed a pellet had entered the right ventricle, caused massive haemopericardium, bruised the inter-ventricular septum and then been carried in the pulmonary circulation to to wedge in the lungs. I milked it back to the heart and it was sent off for ballistics which identified the gun.

I had to explain this in the Central Criminal Court in London and this was tricky. The defence barrister was trying to break down my credibility and asked me 'Could the pellet have entered the body by any other means e.g. in a sausage' He also asked if I could be certain the injury had caused the death of the dog. I was extremely sarcastic in my replies and seemed to have beaten him off. The policeman I was sitting with said he had never heard a witness be so facetious without being stopped by the Judge who was apparently enjoying it. Apparently you are not supposed to treat the barristers like idiots and show disrespect , so beware.

He got off, It was accepted his gun was used, it killed the dog, but as has he wiped it clean of fingerprints when asked for it by police could not be certain someone else didn't pull trigger.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 08:08:49 GMT

Back to what you and I are already agreed on..............as much use as a chocolate fireguard/teapot.

Wynne

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

grumpyoldman — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 21:34:31 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]It's still not much use unless you have a suspect person and a suspect rifle.[/quote]

True ,

most of the damage in cats comes from dragging a 2-3mm plug of skin and hair through a spleen and stomach wall before lodging in the right renal pelvis.

Existing law is good enough if used properly, but as in many other places the application is sadly lacking.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 18:32:50 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]And yes you can match them ballistically to the rifle,(barrel because they have a twist from the original machining, in fact more of a twist because being cheaper and low velocity the machining is less precise). as long as the skirt is not deformed on impact .[/quote]

Well, I have learned something and I acknowledge it. (But that "as long as" is quite a big "as long as").

It's still not much use unless you have a suspect person and a suspect rifle.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 18:27:01 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I disagree. They're far too low powered.

Wynne

[/quote]

They come in all sorts of different "powers".

The ones of lower "power" are excellent for introducing young people to shooting in a proper, correct and safe manner, and then also to accuracy.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 15:28:16 GMT

And make sure that a) they're punished, and b) the punishment is so unpleasant that no-one will ever even consider repeating the evil crime.

Wynne

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 11:47:04 GMT

Surely all that's needed is a change in legislation? Either ban them outright, or if there is a need for them (I can't see why) then make them come under the same regulations as other firearms.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

janine redman — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 11:31:15 GMT

Thanks Guys

i have learnt a lot about guns as well .

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

grumpyoldman — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 11:15:13 GMT

I do not think these people are "serious criminals" because those people tend to play with real guns ,Just NEETS and retards mostly , but even they can accidentally or deliberately do some damage ,so regulation is required.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 10:40:52 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]All the spring action ones.[/quote]Doh...obvious answer really. I had a deprived childhood in as much as I never had a spring action air gun so kind of forgot that's how they all used to be. My pistol has a CO2 cylinder in the grip and a pellet magazine in the chamber so it will fire multiple shots. It is made by Walther and is an exact replica of a Walther P99 so not the sort of thing you'd want to wave around in public if you didn't want to be arrested (or shot) but Wynne will be pleased to know that it only get's used for target shooting in my garden.

Worst survivable injuries I've seen in a cat was one that had been shot through its flank: the pellet passed through a kidney, 2 loops of intestine, the uterus and ended up inside the bladder. One nephrectomy, an enterectomy, hysterectomy and cystotomy later it was as good as new - well with a few bits less of course, it needed spaying anyway!

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 10:07:27 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]What sort of air-gun has a spring in it?[/quote]

All the spring action ones. You bend the barrel back on itself compressing air against the spring tension, that is then released as a pulse and propels the pellet down the barrel.

There will be far more 'springers' than the more expensive ones with an air tank that is topped up via a gas cylinder or a pump.

If you need more details as Wynne ask she is apparently an expert on air rifle ballistics .

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 10:06:43 GMT

Martin I can't stand it when people know an evil criminal is at loose. and excuse their craven inaction by stating it isn't their responsibility. It is the responsibility of all law abiding people to do their utmost to totally eradicate all the evil ones.

Wynne

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 09:52:35 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]you can put a 177 spring inside a 22 spring and increase power that way [/quote]What sort of air-gun has a spring in it?

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

grumpyoldman — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 09:49:12 GMT

you can put a 177 spring inside a 22 spring and increase power that way ,it will go through sheet metal then . And yes you can match them ballistically to the rifle,(barrel because they have a twist from the original machining, in fact more of a twist because being cheaper and low velocity the machining is less precise). as long as the skirt is not deformed on impact .I think the forensic people call it locarte's principle "every contact leaves a trace ".

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Anthony Todd — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 09:45:17 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]They're far too low powered.[/quote]

Not the one that went half way through a cat longways though......and the one I had; bloody dangerous!

The local paper will love the story, must have the Xray, and it's possible someone will know the perpetrator and dob 'im in.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 09:44:01 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I disagree. They're far too low powered.

Wynne

[/quote]Sorry Wynne, there have been a number of human fatalities from airguns this year. If you fire it from point blank range at a vulnerable part of the skull they an be lethal. An RSPCA inspector dispatched a deer that had been in an RTA that one of my nurses attended with an air pistol.

As for the OP: I always advise the owner to report animal airgun injuries because although the chances are the police won't/can't do anything the incident will be documented and may be just the information they need to get some little scrobag who has been firing at people as well. However it is not our responsibility.

RE: Reporting a Cat which has been shot

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 00:02:04 GMT

I disagree. They're far too low powered.

Wynne