Short-cycling heifer?

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 12 Dec 2016 22:28:57 GMT

[quote user="Seadna "]Nice to know about the karyotyping. What would that be used for in practice? Probably for the pedigree breeder who had twin calves and wanted to know at a young age if he got it lucky?[/quote]

Pretty much, although you can probe the young heifer calf's vagina with a blunt ended probe and get a good idea. Compare to another. I use a Metricure catheter. Studies show anywhere between 85-98% of twinned calves as affected so you can be pretty sure it will be a non breeder.

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Seadna — Mon, 12 Dec 2016 18:53:40 GMT

Got a PRID in no problem, defo has two ovaries and actually at my last visit (last week) one of them had a big follicle on it. Having a bit of trouble getting picture of ovaries off scanner and onto a computer. I'm going to struggle to scan her for the 3-4 days around her heat so going to have to hope for the best with the double-PRIDding after insemination.

Nice to know about the karyotyping. What would that be used for in practice? Probably for the pedigree breeder who had twin calves and wanted to know at a young age if he got it lucky?

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 12 Dec 2016 10:12:28 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]Did you breed her yourself? And if not, and it's unknown if she was co twin to a bull, does anyone know if you can get a freemartin girlie enough to come into oestrus but not girlie enough to actually get in calf?[/quote]

Sadly yes you can. The ampullae in a young bull can feel rather like a heifer uterus.

I'm more interested in the ovaries - that is where I would concentrate. Also who did the AI? - was the cervix seemingly normal? It would even be interesting to see how easily you can insert the P4 device, freemartins often have very shortened vaginas.

You can get them karyotyped:

http://www.laboklin.co.uk/laboklin/showGeneticTest.jsp?testID=8023BOV

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 12 Dec 2016 09:56:47 GMT

[quote user="Seadna "]So I suppose the plan now is to ignore this 'heat' and synchronise as I normally would with a progesterone device, then re-insert it (plus a friend) after insemination along with a gonadotropin. I generally adivse FTAI after a synch program because I find the heats can be weak especially if the device is left in longer than 7 days but perhaps would be better to let the bull have at her? What do you think? [/quote]

That's what I would do. Not sure there is much between the bull and AI, but with AI you know you've got semen in there. Don't leave P4 in for more than 9 days, 7 or 8 is fine. I always advise a service. Would probably throw the works at her and GnRH when it goes in, maybe even some PMSG at service.

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 07 Dec 2016 21:18:48 GMT

I like my nice warm bed :-)

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Seadna — Wed, 07 Dec 2016 20:32:53 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"] aul' jag of Vitese[/quote]

You speak like a farm vet, you have good ideas like a farm vet...why are you only doing smallies?!

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 07 Dec 2016 19:32:52 GMT

[quote user="Seadna "]on a hill in the west of Ireland with ad-lib crap silage[/quote]

Well an aul' jag of Vitesel is cheap and won't kill her. May as well.

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Seadna — Wed, 07 Dec 2016 15:02:31 GMT

I waited in such anxiety for her first cycle and when she had one I thought I was in the clear on the Freemartin thing...damnit!

She's on a hill in the west of Ireland with ad-lib crap silage, she's in her element! She's not too thin either, she's a bcs 3.5. I'll find a picture.

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Iain Richards — Wed, 07 Dec 2016 08:40:18 GMT

That, Virginia, is a very sensible question to ask!

Seadna - a not fat 30mth Hereford??? How's that possible!

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 06 Dec 2016 22:19:16 GMT

Did you breed her yourself? And if not, and it's unknown if she was co twin to a bull, does anyone know if you can get a freemartin girlie enough to come into oestrus but not girlie enough to actually get in calf?

(sorry for the possibly embarrassingly dopey question from a small animal vet who has bumbled curiously onto this thread)

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Seadna — Tue, 06 Dec 2016 21:45:36 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]If the ovaries are that small, the CL isn't going to be terribly large and I'd winder if it's capable of supporting a pregnancy (I'll defer to Michael though). I'm guessing she'll be a bit fat by now so the calving may be awkward too. Cull might be wise, sorry.[/quote]

Yeah, I would be screaming for cull at any farmer but she's a beautiful Hereford and I want to spend a bit of time and money on her. It's certainly not an economic enterprise I'm running so I can afford to have a bash. Apart from anything else, it'll be a good learning experience.

She's not fat, but even if she was I would have plenty of time to drop weight in the first two trimesters I would think, no?

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Iain Richards — Tue, 06 Dec 2016 21:37:45 GMT

If the ovaries are that small, the CL isn't going to be terribly large and I'd winder if it's capable of supporting a pregnancy (I'll defer to Michael though). I'm guessing she'll be a bit fat by now so the calving may be awkward too. Cull might be wise, sorry.

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Seadna — Tue, 06 Dec 2016 20:13:20 GMT

She's an hour away from me Michael and with OOH duties I can only get to her once every 3-4 days. I felt two ovaries the size of marbles. I'll nick the good scanner from work this week and try to get a few pictures of the repro tract but it's pot-luck whether I'll happen upon her in a heat.

So I suppose the plan now is to ignore this 'heat' and synchronise as I normally would with a progesterone device, then re-insert it (plus a friend) after insemination along with a gonadotropin. I generally adivse FTAI after a synch program because I find the heats can be weak especially if the device is left in longer than 7 days but perhaps would be better to let the bull have at her? What do you think? Thanks for the fantastic info, as usual :)

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 06 Dec 2016 16:07:31 GMT

Or keep her as a fully automatic lawn mower

Wynne

How is Irritable bowel syndrome involved?

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 05 Dec 2016 21:55:30 GMT

It sounds like she's showing oestrus at each follicular wave, even though one of them should be suppressed by the high progesterone (there is still a mini oestrogen peak mid cycle). I want to know if she's ovulating. It's quite possible ovulation is not occurring, or possibly only occurring at one of the 2 'heats'.

When you say 'small but active' ovaries specifically what are you seeing and what size? Can you record images? Is there a CL? Have you scanned at oestrus - ovulation should occur ~30 hours after standing heat - there should be a 15mm+ follicle.

The hypothalamus needs to see progesterone before it will undergo a normal cycle so if there is no CL then a PRID/CIDR pre service would be wise. You can even double them up (2 at once).

George Mann at Nottingham Uni has practically forged his entire career looking at P4 supplementation after service and some of his work does look promising. Not something I do routinely but worthy of a try.

Get me some more info and I can offer better advice.

So unbelievably sceptical regarding IBR and fertility.

In a normal herd a 30 month empty heifer with defective reproductive physiology - I'd be pushing cull as hard as I could. Sorry.

RE: Short-cycling heifer?

Iain Richards — Mon, 05 Dec 2016 17:16:50 GMT

I'll await Michael's reply but I'd wonder about ruling out IBR with short intervals. She should have normal sized ovaries though. (not a weird thing like a Dexter si she?)