Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 07:29:28 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]in the future, the easiest way to deal with all this nonsense is to ask the client sign all these things away at first registration, like when you buy a new mobile phone/contract or any other services: insurances, internet, energy, etc..[/quote]

It wouldn't work and pointless as a defence ..it isn't informed consent anyway if the specific procedure/risks aren't discussed.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 06:41:33 GMT

[quote user="janine redman"]

So nobody else on this forum has heard of this requirement ?

[/quote]

I have heard it, we suppose to be doing it. We even thought about a some sort of tablet where the client signs by just pressing a button, so to reduce paper waste and time but we never implemented it. Ive said it many times before: in the future, the easiest way to deal with all this nonsense is to ask the client sign all these things away at first registration, like when you buy a new mobile phone/contract or any other services: insurances, internet, energy, etc..

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

David Mills — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 00:45:45 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Yes but they are paying for you to 'perform' veterinary medicine. [/quote]

So said the circus master to the monkey

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]When I used to do more smallies I usually got owners to hold dogs for bloods. They love being involved. Similar with a PTS - if you can get owner to give a good tight cuddle then it's a breeze.[/quote]

It depends on clients I think.

The number of times I've had clients screaming when their cat is properly restrained for a blood sample, and the number of PTSs made more awkward by Mrs X squeezing their beloved to death has jaundiced my approach, I admit (It's not uncommon for me to order the client out of the room if they're getting in the way of a clinical exam, don't do lists, and let them speak little). But for the patients, it's often the most welfare-friendly way of getting things done by removing the owner from the situation. I'd never get an owner to hold for bloods because they're crap at it. PTSs - yes they can hold - but almost all get I/v catheters placed these days (out the back).

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 00:29:31 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Almost every single thing is best done without the owner present, including examination, although the latter is not normally possible. Quite simple really.

[/quote]

Yes but they are paying for you to 'perform' veterinary medicine. Give them their money's worth (I appreciate you work at a charity, but I believe my point stands).

When I used to do more smallies I usually got owners to hold dogs for bloods. They love being involved. Similar with a PTS - if you can get owner to give a good tight cuddle then it's a breeze.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

David Mills — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 00:23:59 GMT

Almost every single thing is best done without the owner present, including examination, although the latter is not normally possible. Quite simple really.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Aine Seavers — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 00:20:48 GMT

Sure agree about how some dogs better without the owner, to the point we ask 2 particular clients to not attend with the dog if at all possible as much better with other family members, others of troublesome pets take a seat outside. Vast majority of the ad ons above I will call the nurses in to finish off those extras and they then take client out to be billed out. In the interim I have left the room and gone my second consult room where the second client already waiting and ready to get started.Speeds things up well as only you have to move out not the client or pet and no down time between consults at busy points.

Re the canine cough, if clients anyway immunosuppressed I ask them to step outside. We no longer give it intranasally to adult dogs routinely because we had a run of break throughs (more than the normal as its not a 100% protective vaccine regardless) and there was suggestions in some vaccine research fields that suggested repeated intra-nasal vaccines don’t work as the local immunity is so good that additional vaccine boosters/ update at that site is poor leaving the animal vulnerable to infection and clinical expression of the infection. We found that to be the case and so switched adults to injectable courses and touch wood have not had any issues since 2010ish when we switched.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

janine redman — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 00:17:31 GMT

So nobody else on this forum has heard of this requirement ?

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Nicola Cole — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 23:53:24 GMT

Also I'll try out of the room if a dog is very difficult to give kennel cough vac to-take said dog into another room with new people in and the temporary distraction of a new environment often gives you enough time to do kc vac without the dog realising what's happening.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Nicola Cole — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 23:50:35 GMT

As above, if creates a time issue so would delay next client-'oh whilst I'm here for something else that you've already spent 10mimutes on could you now clip out all the matts on my cat...' or if I think an animal will be easier to handle without the owner there.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Utlendigur — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 23:15:21 GMT

Ok, 3 for a start

Some dogs are better behaved away from their owners.

Some clients either don't like (even phobic about) blood, or needles, or seeing their pet even a little stressed or restrained (sometimes they opt to go out of the consult room - not sure if we should be chasing after them waving a consent form if they chose to go?)

Nice bright directable op-light in prep area

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 23:12:05 GMT

Reasons vary, but a common one for us is that the animal is handed over to our team of RVNs to go ahead and take blood/shave matts/clip nails etc while the vet gets on and sees the next client. No rushing, no stress for the vet, nurse is utilised properly and next client isn't kept waiting. The client can be there if they wish - they rarely bother and are happy to sit in the waiting room. Everyone is happy!

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Aine Seavers — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 22:58:02 GMT

why do you have to remove the pet from the room to clip nails, clip a mat of fur or taking out sutures? Can't the extra help if needed come to you?

Moving the animal through the building to have a mini issue dealt with that could be dealt with in a the consult room seems to add risk issues that dont exist if you just do the item in the consult room or have UK rooms changed so much that only initial fully body examinations don in there and everything else moved on to a second site? Not being sarcastic, I am genuinely interested-if nothing else my fitbit would record way more steps if I ran around doing all my in consult mini issues in different areas.

We mostly do blood tests with owners present-exception would be a cat we know we have to sedate to blood draw in which case form already signed.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Glenn Hodgson — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 19:35:41 GMT

Seriously?

Sounds more like a guideline for the educated...

All lies on interpretationof admitted. Common sense shiuld guide this

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Kate Richardson — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 17:36:34 GMT

We've recently had our assessment and passed and we don't do consent forms for the above, only if the animal is admitted. And my boss was very ocd about crossing the t's and dotting the i's!

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Stephanie Wellings — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 16:17:46 GMT

+1 for consent only if the owner leaves the premises or you anticipate specific risk of complications and want to cover yourself

My practice isn't in the PSS, and if this is the kind of thing the PSS are concerned about, there is no hope of ever persuading them to join :-(

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 13:00:32 GMT

In my book, admitted only means when the owner is actually leaving the pet with you and coming back later. If the owner is still on the premises then unless it's having sedation then no form needed. Bureaucracy gone mad.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

janine redman — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:49:08 GMT

Exactly, but it seems excessive just to take a dog round the back to see a colleague and would put new graduates in really difficult situations when they need assistance. Let alone the time , paper , ink and immediate suspicion from clients if asked to sign a form just to clip a dogs nails , look down its ears or similar.

It may be the "usually " we can use to discuss practicalities. We were told by PSS it came from VDS but they say it was not a directive from them. Trying to find a practical solution but we are required to give documented evidence of compliance. We can do it but it seems completely illogical . Ok if you have a tachycardic stressed cat that is restrained for a blood sample there is a risk of a heart attack , I have always relied on verbal warning and consent which should be adequate . But for every time you take the pet away from the owner?? Even to give KC vaccine.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:15:27 GMT

From the PSS rules:

Signed consent forms are usually required for all procedures
when a patient is admitted to the care of a veterinary surgeon.
This will include diagnostics, medical treatments, surgery and
euthanasia.

“Admitted” means where an animal is in the care of the
veterinary surgeon and is not in the presence of the owner.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 10:58:10 GMT

As has been said, a signature on a form is not, in itself, evidence of informed consent. Sounds like something has been lost in translation?

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Iain Richards — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 10:43:23 GMT

I'd ask PSS to clarify that - in writing. Informed consent does not have to be signed, verbal will do. A signed form will support you in a dispute, but is not per se informed. Such as when an owner can't read.Signed consent for minor procedures sounds unecessarry bureaucracy and adds extra time to the consult.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

David Mills — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 02:04:40 GMT

I've always though verbal consent is sufficient in most cases, including euthanasia. Can't remember where I heard that, but I'm pretty sure it was VDS-backed.

RE: Consent forms to clip dogs nails etc without owner present

Rob Loxley — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 23:22:57 GMT

Gilding the lily?

We generally take bloods away from the owners, agree with the owners this is what will happen, but have never even considered getting a signed consent form for this. If this is what the PSS wishes (rather than some inspector's 'over-enthusiasm') then I do worry what it is supposed to achieve and what planet some people occupy. Am I being harsh?