Tortoise Care

RE: Tortoise Care

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 22:40:16 GMT

[quote user="Mark Naguib"]I strongly recommend getting an infra-red temperature gun for spot checking temperatures.[/quote]

I have one in my consult room....great for showing people just how cold their reptile actually is! It may only give surface temperature but I find it a useful demo.

RE: Tortoise Care

Mark Naguib — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 22:34:00 GMT

[quote user="CatherineThomas"] Pretty much every reptile consult I do I recommend a digital thermometer[/quote]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] Yep - agreed. But owners also need to be reminded to look at it regularly...and act on their findings! I ask what their minds/max readings are, and they rarely know! Another common one...Clients who have a tortoise table with a thermostat set-up on the basking light, but who don't have a thermometer. I point out that it is the same as having the oven on with the door open.....You wouldn't just assume the temp on the dial is correct!!!

[/quote]

I have this very conversation on a daily basis with clients at work! As well as a digital thermometer at each end (preferably with a min/max function), I strongly recommend getting an infra-red temperature gun for spot checking temperatures. They're really handy and not expensive. Make sure you check it against a standard digital thermometer first - I've noticed on some there may be a 1C difference.

RE: Tortoise Care

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 08:41:25 GMT

[quote user="CatherineThomas"] Pretty much every reptile consult I do I recommend a digital thermometer[/quote]

Yep - agreed. But owners also need to be reminded to look at it regularly...and act on their findings! I ask what their minds/max readings are, and they rarely know!

Another common one...Clients who have a tortoise table with a thermostat set-up on the basking light, but who don't have a thermometer. I point out that it is the same as having the oven on with the door open.....You wouldn't just assume the temp on the dial is correct!!!

RE: Tortoise Care

CatherineThomas — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 05:23:33 GMT

I'd like to add something if I may. The thermometer you mention, is that the dial on the left side? If so i'd get rid of it, or at least not rely on it. It's too far away from where the tortoise is to be any use and isn't very accurate. Get a digital thermometer with a probe so that you can measure the temperature of the actual basking area at the hot end.

I hate those dial thermometers and the stick on things designed for fish tanks but all the pet shops round here sell them in their set-ups and then people think that's sufficient. Pretty much every reptile consult I do I recommend a digital thermometer.

RE: Tortoise Care

Marie Kubiak — Sat, 17 Dec 2016 12:10:35 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] soil ... what, out of the garden? Or get a bag from the garden centre? Or would plain sand be better (easier to spot and remove faeces)? I guess the soil is for humidity, so would have to be a mix.[/quote]

You can use peat/garden soil but best to sift and sterilise it first so works out much easier to buy some from a reptile petshop. I use 'Ecoearth' but there are lots of options. Most come as a dessicated, compacted brick and need damping to expand and break into softer soil, then add in some reptile/fine play sand.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Will adjust, though slightly fearful that children may break bulb (broken glass etc) if just dangling. Perhaps affix to the rear wall.[/quote]

You can get little sucker attachments that fix onto wall and gently hold the lamp fixings so child-intervention is less damaging.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Yes, basking light on timer. No supplementary heating at night (yet?) Yes, we have a thermometer at the opposite end to the basking light.[/quote]

Also worth getting another thermometere for hot end as you need to know full gradient.

If room remains very warm (minimum 18C) you can get away without but still preferable to have a heat mat on the side/bottom of tank attached to thermostat to keep a warmer area of approx 20C overnight.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]The overfed possibility worries me! We weren't warned of that problem when we bought it, and put more than it could eat in the bowl. Then told by a VS that food should be restricted, and at least one day a week without food, which we are now doing.[/quote]

The overfed comment was more relating to Martin's tortoise, not yours. If fed weeds and some salad then overfeeding is rare, it is high value nutrition (including pellets, please do chuck them!) that is a problem.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Also, we haven't hibernated yet. Presumed that could happen more or less any time over the winter.[/quote]

If temperatures remain stable and UV lighting stays on a 12hr on/off cycle then most tortoises won't notice that it is winter so won't go into hibernation. Given you have only had him recently I would not consider hibernating as it is hard to be confident of his overall health without getting to know his behaviour and monitoring appetite/weight etc over a longer period.

Occasionally some awkward tortoises will note subtle changes in temperature/light through window/air pressure/who knows what and realise it is winter and hibernation must happen. usually you can bump temperatures up a little and confuse them into staying awake.

Marie

RE: Tortoise Care

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 07 Dec 2016 11:45:01 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]I am typing this from a darkened corner[/quote]

I am so sorry not to have replied earlier and said thanks - been a rather hectic time, what with events of the last few weeks!

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]Please don't take anything personally, I am trying to be objective and highlight any areas where there are better options, not meaning to criticise.[/quote]

Ground rules: you can say it as it is! I'm not going to take anything personally!

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]- substrate, anything they can eat chunks of and not dig down into doesn't work well. A soil or soil/sand mix is better at allowing digging, maintaining humidity in deeper layers (thus allowing 'microhabitats' at different humidity levels) and has lower risk of intestinal impaction.[/quote]

This is probably a silly question, but soil ... what, out of the garden? Or get a bag from the garden centre? Or would plain sand be better (easier to spot and remove faeces)? I guess the soil is for humidity, so would have to be a mix.

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]-UV light is tucked nicely out of the way at the top but the intensity drops off markedly with distance[/quote]

Will adjust, though slightly fearful that children may break bulb (broken glass etc) if just dangling. Perhaps affix to the rear wall.

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"] chuck out the pellet diet, it is basically tortoise McDonalds.[/quote]

Laughed out loud. Shop said it was useful just to have in emergency, if leaves were not readily available (I know, the garden isn't far, but not yet sure exactly what is OK from the garden!). Would you say 'not even for emergency, throw it away?'

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]I would stick with the viv for a year or two then upgrade to a table when he is bigger[/quote]

Yes, that was our plan.

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]Additionally you have named your tortoise Zeus.[/quote]

Laughed out loud, it was my daughter actually! But we plan to rename if necessary when sex is known!

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I assume your basking light is off at night - just wanted to ask whether there is any supplementary heat overnight? Heat mat?[/quote]

Yes, basking light on timer. No supplementary heating at night (yet?) Yes, we have a thermometer at the opposite end to the basking light.

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]I'd say 2yr old should be 180-360g so this is likely older, seriously overfed or not a marginata! [/quote]

The overfed possibility worries me! We weren't warned of that problem when we bought it, and put more than it could eat in the bowl. Then told by a VS that food should be restricted, and at least one day a week without food, which we are now doing.

Also, we haven't hibernated yet. Presumed that could happen more or less any time over the winter.

Thanks again Marie

RE: Tortoise Care

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 19:00:13 GMT

I googled the Powderham tortoise and discovered she was a Mediterranean not a Galapagos tortoise as I'd previously thought Oops!

Wynne

RE: Tortoise Care

Marie Kubiak — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 18:19:48 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I was hoping Marie would comment on whether this tortoise is larger than expected for its age and therefore likely to be older but perhaps she didn't spot my post from her dark corner! From the number of shell rings it looks older but I know that's unreliable.[/quote]

Sorry, out from the corner temporarily...

I'd say 2yr old should be 180-360g so this is likely older, seriously overfed or not a marginata! Rings just correlate with periods of high food intake so mean little in terms of age.

At that weight I'd be happy to hibernate it if healthy and if it is confirmed as a marginata and definitely not a different species that shouldn't hibernate (Sulcata or Leopard tortoises are markedly different in carapace pigment and shape as well as leg scalation).

I tend to do a normal hibernation prep and recovery as for an adult but only do a couple of weeks of actual hibernation in youngsters.

Marie

RE: Tortoise Care

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 17:40:08 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Do they hibernate for anything other than a few days/weeks in the wild? [/quote]

Considering they come from Southern Greece, I doubt it gets particularly cold there....and certainly not for long!

RE: Tortoise Care

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 17:22:26 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Hadn't heard of that scale so just looked it up .....apparently it is for Horsefields, not marginated.

I do use ratios to monitor health, mainly Jackson, but a single measurement certainly isn't a reliable indicator and it has to be used with caution.

[/quote]My conclusion was that the McIntyre ratio was probably better than Jackson's regardless which seems pretty useless for anything.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Age in itself isn't a problem for hibernating...they would have to do so in the wild afterall. [/quote]I guess age is more related to size attained more than age per se. Do they hibernate for anything other than a few days/weeks in the wild? Size wouldn't be so important then if they don't needs several months of reserves.

I was hoping Marie would comment on whether this tortoise is larger than expected for its age and therefore likely to be older but perhaps she didn't spot my post from her dark corner! From the number of shell rings it looks older but I know that's unreliable.

RE: Tortoise Care

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 20:51:39 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]A vivarium is controversial- many people now advocate a tortoise table[/quote]

I know we could chat about benefits vs problems for long enough to bore everyone else reading but.... I find that a lot of people with tortoise tables still get it badly wrong. They read 'tortoise tables are better than vivs' but actually have no idea about the problems, especially with overwintering in them. On the whole, the majority of the environment will be at room temp which, in winter, can be really cold, especially overnight. This is made worse by those who don't supply any heating overnight, which seems to be really common with tables.

Although vivariums certainly have their own big issues, I suggest not swapping to a tortoise table unless it can be put in a room where the ambient temp is permanently controlled, and certainly not allowed to drop below about 15 C.

Arlo.. I assume your basking light is off at night - just wanted to ask whether there is any supplementary heat overnight? Heat mat? Also, are you measuring the temperatures at all?

RE: Tortoise Care

Marie Kubiak — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 20:17:26 GMT

I am typing this from a darkened corner whilst I try to persuade a tetchy toddler to sleep so apologies about typos/accidental insertion of profanities I am currently thinking- these are aimed at said toddler, not you Arlo!

Ok, there are some good points:

Thermostat, UV lighting, thermometers, hide areas, overhead heating and water bowl large enough to climb in. All great but I won't dwell on them.

That being said there are some tweaks to consider making. Please don't take anything personally, I am trying to be objective and highlight any areas where there are better options, not meaning to criticise.

- substrate, anything they can eat chunks of and not dig down into doesn't work well. A soil or soil/sand mix is better at allowing digging, maintaining humidity in deeper layers (thus allowing 'microhabitats' at different humidity levels) and has lower risk of intestinal impaction.

-UV light is tucked nicely out of the way at the top but the intensity drops off markedly with distance (intensity is proportional to 1/distance^2) so your eeny meeny tortoise barely above the ground benefits much less than an adult would. If you drop the light to 4 or 5 inches there will be much more UVB exposure (lower can cause eye issues), then gradually raise it as the tortoise grows. I suggest height of light is about equivalent to plastron length.

- chuck out the pellet diet, it is basically tortoise McDonalds. I still struggle to understand why they design a dry, low fibre food for an animal that lives on high fibre, high-water vegetation. Pet shops love to sell it but it can lead to dehydration, bladder stones, constipation, growth deformities and many pellet types predispose animals to respiratory infections due to vitamin A deficiencies. Tortoises eat fresh greens- ideally weeds but dark leafy shop bought greens will do when weeds are hard to come by.

A vivarium is controversial- many people now advocate a tortoise table (basically a big tray with larger floor area and much more airflow. This is great for respiratory tract health, thermal gradient provision and activity. Definitely the way to go when he is older. However, I feel vivs still have a role for babies as these little tortoises are too small to have decent thermal inertia and can get too hot or too cold fast. A heated box means there is less exposure to temperature variation (good at this age, less good in adults) so I would stick with the viv for a year or two then upgrade to a table when he is bigger, a full repertoire of behaviour and increased size help manage temperature better and he needs more space to stomp around.

Additionally you have named your tortoise Zeus. This absolutely guarantees he will turn out to be a girl and result in your vet looking a bit confused every time you bring her in and mixing their pronouns. Please think of us poor souls!

Marie

RE: Tortoise Care

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 19:20:52 GMT

Cute. IMO setup OK but could be improved, but I'll be good and leave the comments to Marie. She's far more diplomatic than me!

(Have to say though...bin that calcium and buy nutrobal!)

http://www.vetark.co.uk/pages/Nutrobal-for-reptiles.aspx

RE: Tortoise Care

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 19:12:37 GMT

Thought I'd better hijack this thread back again (I've been rather diverted for 48 hours sorting out insurance forms, police etc), so here's Zeus:

and here is Zeus's home:

Not the most imaginatively decorated home, it must be said.

RE: Tortoise Care

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 19:10:41 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]It is chipped and supposedly hatched in July 2014 so advice is to think twice about hibernating at that age.[/quote]

Age in itself isn't a problem for hibernating...they would have to do so in the wild afterall. The problem is pre-existing illness (or chronic ill-thrift with immunosuppression), poor hibernation conditions and hibernating for too long. A lethal combination.

RE: Tortoise Care

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 19:03:49 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]It is already 650 gm and measures 100x140x65 mm, so possibly even a little overweight on the McIntyre scale.[/quote]

Hadn't heard of that scale so just looked it up .....apparently it is for Horsefields, not marginated.

I do use ratios to monitor health, mainly Jackson, but a single measurement certainly isn't a reliable indicator and it has to be used with caution.

Marginated are a large species that require very specific care....I hope these owners have decent indoor and outdoor set-ups!

RE: Tortoise Care

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 18:32:15 GMT

Bit of an aside: had a Marginated tortoise brought in yesterday for a pre-hibernation check. It is chipped and supposedly hatched in July 2014 so advice is to think twice about hibernating at that age. It is already 650 gm and measures 100x140x65 mm, so possibly even a little overweight on the McIntyre scale. Is it possible for a 2 year old Marginated to get that big? I suspect it is older but it hasn't really developed its skirt yet.

RE: Tortoise Care

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 16:37:20 GMT

The Powderham tortoise was a Galapagos one, so what effect the greater mass: surface area ratio would have?

Wynne

RE: Tortoise Care

Marie Kubiak — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 16:01:21 GMT

[quote user="Gareth C."]

Use a chiller not a fridge as they cannot go below about 5 degrees if malfunction. we use a drinks chiller with electronic thermostat. see tortoise trust website for details

[/quote]

Interesting, I have always avoided them as was advised they were less able to maintain a stable temperature than fridges. Do you have a particular make/type/size? They are certainly less cumbersome than most fridges so would be more convenient if reliable.

RE: outside, I regularly had immunosuppressed sick tortoises brought in that were not coping with being outdoor tortoises even when I was practicing in Kent so I am not a fan of outside life for them unless there is a secure area that has heating. My advice to clients is that if they can be outside in a T-shirt and be comfortable then the tortoise can be out but shouldn't be left there overnight or if temperatures cool. Without prolonged warm weather heating the soil and rocks, and deep, dry, soft, sandy soil they can't thermoregulate by digging as they naturally would so even if weather isn't much worse than the wild situation can get, they can't respond in the same way.

Marie

RE: Tortoise Care

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 08:30:07 GMT

It's only a few years ago that an outdoor living tortoise that had sailed in Nelson's navy died at Powderham Castle, but as Gillian has pointed out, that is hardly standard UK climate. In fact Torbay, and the south coast of Cornwall are probably the most tortoise friendly areas of mainland Britain.. It's very different for the rest of us!

Wynne

RE: Tortoise Care

Gareth C. — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 08:02:28 GMT

Use a chiller not a fridge as they cannot go below about 5 degrees if malfunction. we use a drinks chiller with electronic thermostat. see tortoise trust website for details

RE: Tortoise Care

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 00:09:03 GMT

[quote user="Gareth C."] the sun just happens to be a great source of uv light! [/quote]

You obviously have different sun in Devon to the rare pale and insipid example we have in Manchester!

[quote user="Gareth C."]they live naturally as far north as the dordogne so a decent UK summer is not dissimilar to their natural habitat.[/quote]

Lol...I have holidayed a few times in the Dordogne. It really doesn't compare to Manchester!

[quote user="Gareth C."]hibernate them in a chiller[/quote]

Not sure what you mean by a chiller. Be careful with electric appliances. We had our first frozen tortoise of the winter last week, courtesy of a malfunctioning domestic fridge!

[quote user="Gareth C."]We are in devon so maybe more tortoise friendly weather! [/quote]

I suspect so.

RE: Tortoise Care

Gareth C. — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 23:52:08 GMT

Two useful websites are the tortoise table and tortoise trust.

Tortoises can certainly be kept outdoors for some of the time, the sun just happens to be a great source of uv light! Hermans do well in the UK, certainly in the south. they live naturally as far north as the dordogne so a decent UK summer is not dissimilar to their natural habitat. hibernate them in a chiller and that leaves you with early spring and autumn to get right, which can be tricky! we see lots of tortoises and many live largely outdoors when the weather is good and do well (oldest patient is 95YEARS). We are in devon so maybe more tortoise friendly weather!