Neutered Abroad

RE: Neutered Abroad

janine redman — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 22:53:51 GMT

I have had one rescue bitch from abroad with this as well . Apparently it is a normal procedure which allows for normal behaviour but prevents puppies. Poor bitch developed a stump pyometra.

RE: Neutered Abroad

Niall Taylor — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 17:07:38 GMT

[quote user="Will McMullan"]

[quote user="Tim Charlesworth"]in fact some practices in the UK are now offering this as a service (I think it's called and "ovarian-sparing spay" or something like that).[/quote]

I have just received an email from a lady asking if I will perform this on her bitch.

[/quote]

So-called ovary sparing spaying or neutering is promoted by a few individuals and small pressure groups but is based on pseudoscience and a misunderstanding of relative and absolute risk surrounding neutering.

There are risks including gastric ulceration (if using an 'auto-transplant' technique which is sometimes recommended), persistent oestrus, stump pyo and neoplasia and no advantage of 'ovary-sparing' neutering over not neutering at all, i.e. reduced relative risk of certain boney tumours, skin changes and urinary incontinence compared with increased risk of mammary and ovarian tumours, pyometra, unwanted pregnancies etc.

There is a rather elderly South African paper on the subject:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2634772

I can let you have a few more references if you want and you will probably find more if you google the subject but the few pieces of real evidence out there are swamped by the shrill cries of advocacy groups sounding very pleased with themselves because they have found something to make them feel special while at the same time annoying the pants off anyone who understands science

Cheers,

Niall

ETA - On reviewing some of my links and references I see there is now a "dog vasectomy" advocacy group. Good grief...

RE: Neutered Abroad

bevs2251 — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 04:47:54 GMT

I've seen stump pyos in cats (long time ago). Likely were due to ovarian remnants - not something we particularly knew about (or were old about) back then. Usually went back in and removed the stump (didn't look for ovarian remnants).

On another group vet thread, a vet (I think she's from USA) currently has a dog case with recurrent "vaginitis" that was speyed in Romania. My thoughts immediately were stump pyo or ovarian remnant, or both !!

First ferret spey I did was supposedly speyed. Came in with swollen vulva. Did have a midline scar + O reported there were sutures that had to be removed. Trepidatiously opened her up after discussion with the only vet I knew to have speyed one (his own) for some advice. Turns out she had all the kit and kaboodle still inside (both ovaries and uterus) !!

Don't know what happened at original surgery - couldn't find and just closed back up ! Also lied to client ! Not good but it was an easy first ferret spey for me, in the end .

RE: Neutered Abroad

Sammy82 — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 15:45:15 GMT

I don't understand the usefulness in dogs. Obviously prevents unwanted pregnancies and pyometras but surely the bitches will still come into season, attract male dogs and bleed on the carpet which imo is half the reason people get their dogs spayed, plus no prevention of mammary tumours. Ovarectomy only is not really a new fashion, certainly been standard in young bitches and cats when I was at vetschool 10+ years ago, I have never heard of a spayed dog/cat getting pyo.

RE: Neutered Abroad

Anthony Todd — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 14:27:11 GMT

I understand hysterectomy only, is routine in women.

This is probably where the idea comes from.

Some surgeons I know, point out that ovarian tumours are common and deadly' .

They therefore remove the ovaries too and concurrently.

RE: Neutered Abroad

Will McMullan — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 13:08:05 GMT

[quote user="Tim Charlesworth"]in fact some practices in the UK are now offering this as a service (I think it's called and "ovarian-sparing spay" or something like that).[/quote]

I have just received an email from a lady asking if I will perform this on her bitch. I am not really comfortable with the idea of it, but haven't replied to ask why she wants it done yet. Is anyone on here experienced with this surgery or an advocate of it? Like most of these bizarre requests, I think I'll file it in the 'more trouble than it's worth and probably close to misconduct' drawer and leave well alone.

RE: Neutered Abroad

Lucy Travers — Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:08:02 GMT

Yes bizarre really, just a hysterectomy. I am waiting for the owner to find details so I can talk to them to warn any other owners what may happen. I guess its a quick procedure to stop unwanted litters. The incision was particularly low down. When going in I was pretty sure she must just have had a hysterectomy as the owner did have an intact male in the house during the eight months she had the Bitch!

RE: Neutered Abroad

Lucy Travers — Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:04:23 GMT

Hi Joyce,

Thanks. I was actually surprised how easy the op was, like you I was worried the Ovaries would be tucked away behind the kidneys, but they were exactly where they should be, just with no uterus attached! I had to ease the ligament to get a good ligation but was pleased it wasn't much more stressful than a normal spey! There was minimal scarring, and the fact that the dog was a little overweight actually helped as there was a nice layer of fat around each Ovary!

RE: Neutered Abroad

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:48:28 GMT

[quote user="Tim Charlesworth"]

We regularly see cases of ovarian remnant syndrome, most of which have been neutered in the UK and described as having had ovariohysterectomy. It may just have been simple surgeon error rather than a conscious decision to just do hysterectomy...

[/quote]I know some inexperienced vets struggle to get the ovaries up especially in a heavily muscle breed like a Staffie. Sometimes there is pressure to try and spay through too small a wound and reluctance/fear of tugging too hard on the ovarian ligament. I always triple ligate above the ovary so no likelihood of leaving a remnant.

However if it was deliberate it seems odd given the 'fashion' to perform only ovariectomies, you'd have thought it would have been easier to whip out the ovaries out rather than the uterine body. Maybe it is some odd Croation habit of contraception, leaving the ovaries in so the bitch can 'have fun' but not have a litter of unwanted puppies!

RE: Neutered Abroad

Tim Charlesworth — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 11:24:04 GMT

Sorry, missed the "intentional" part of the OP! Re tips - the simplest thing is to inspect each ovary once you've removed it and make sure that it is complete. Most of the cases of ovarian remnants that we see are pyos or fat/cystic ovaries. The spay scars in these dogs are often tiny which is a shame as often the surgical notes say "trouble finding ovary" or words to that effect which begs the question why not just make the incision bigger if you're having problems...

There has been some chat about just doing hysterectomy in dogs on the back of the (slightly dubious) evidence of neutered dogs having incr incidence of some types of tumours, in fact some practices in the UK are now offering this as a service (I think it's called and "ovarian-sparing spay" or something like that). Personally, I still remove the ovaries and I think that the current evidence base backs this as a technique.

RE: Neutered Abroad

Bob Russell — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:39:37 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Hi Tim

We've been here before but worth asking.

Are they complete ovaries, or remnants left through a ligature too close

Any tips on avoiding it?

For my part I always visualise an intact ovary after removal as after all new grads and locums......

Neil

[/quote]

We have a very strict routine which includes visualising the ovary but despite this somehow a remnant was left in a patient several years ago. It was removed at laparotomy for another reason so was not a problem! To this day I am not sure what happened!!!

RE: Neutered Abroad

Niall Taylor — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:25:04 GMT

[quote user="Tim Charlesworth"] It may just have been simple surgeon error[/quote]

It didn't sound like it from the OP:

[quote user="Lucy Travers"]... after discussion with the rescue group it turns out that only the uterus had been removed![/quote]

I would take this to mean the 'rescue' group and presumably the original VS knew exactly what had been done but were too ill informed to recognise it as being a problem for the animal.

Niall

RE: Neutered Abroad

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:15:56 GMT

Hi Tim

We've been here before but worth asking.

Are they complete ovaries, or remnants left through a ligature too close

Any tips on avoiding it?

For my part I always visualise an intact ovary after removal as after all new grads and locums......

Neil

RE: Neutered Abroad

Tim Charlesworth — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:06:09 GMT

RE: Neutered Abroad

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 14 Nov 2016 22:18:29 GMT

I suspect a lot of "rescuers" would just think hysterectomy equals spaying. Good thing someone did have the knowledge though. Welcome Lucy. Was there much scar tissue in there and was the op more difficult due to that? I'd imagine locating the ovaries with no uterus to follow could be a touch tricky?

RE: Neutered Abroad

Niall Taylor — Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:57:09 GMT

Hi Lucy, and welcome to the forum

[quote user="Lucy Travers"] after discussion with the rescue group it turns out that only the uterus had been removed![/quote]

You mean the group actually knew this poor dog had only had a hysterectomy - were they happy with this?

The attitude of the recent plethora of 'rescue' organisations leaves much to be desired, they seem to me to be more about the ego of the organisers than about actually helping any animals.

Has the organisation given you any explanation about what happened?

Niall