Bovine heart PM

RE: Bovine heart PM

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 10:37:03 GMT

Ian - I agree. Was talking to someone at BCVA and the entire VLA have no ruminant histologists so now have a contract with a private lab to do that work. It's pathetic, and when the next disease outbreak comes (and it will) I think it will be exposed and overwhelmed in an instant.

I still think there is perhaps more merit in more gross PMs rather than fewer done in perfect cases with lots of testing. Our feeling has been the much greater numbers (even with lower sensitivity) have given much clearer patterns of what is happening on farm and we've made a lot more rapid changes.

RE: Bovine heart PM

Iain Richards — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 10:05:22 GMT

There is, as ever, a huge BUT in all of this. At 48 hours any bacteria recovered cannot be regarded as significant due to simply sitting in a perfect culture medium. PCR is going to be too muddled. Histopath is meaningless. So we are left with gross pathology (as per previous post). Now, if you have a sheep carcass, young lamb, this time of year, splashes in trachea and oesophagus and a pure growth of Biberstenia from an unvaccinated animal, I might put a pneumonia tag on it!

The demise of VLA is so sad. Undermined by appalling management from overpaid civil servant focussing on costs. Further undermined by an obsession with following algorithms. Now not used by practices. Well done DEFRA. Again. A true bunch of mindless ejits who'll be first against the wall etc...

RE: Bovine heart PM

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 23 Oct 2016 17:15:16 GMT

It depends what you are looking for really. We don't use the VLA any more as the service is slow and expensive. They are obsessed with everything ticking all the boxes to fulfil their VIDA database classifications. We now do a lot of post mortems ourselves and send further samples when appropriate or get Ben to do them (the ex VLA vet I mentioned). Do all the sheep abortion enquiries etc ourselves. Costs less money, takes less time, do lots more testing (VLA lab is over an hour from me) and is very interesting for us.

Ben's work had a non-diagnosis rate of about 20% when you average sheep and lambs. Many were done on gross pathology, but further testing done where needed. These were things collected as fallen stock, so no weekend collections. Some animals in the pilot study were quite green and yielded usable data that could be fed back at farm level. It's encouraged me to open up a lot more less ideal cases and I've found lots of useful information.

The report is in the public domain so I attach the summary as a PDF.

RE: Bovine heart PM

Seadna — Sun, 23 Oct 2016 11:34:01 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]it's amazing how mushy they can be and still yield important results[/quote]

In terms of parasites, pneumonia, catastrophic abdominal diseases and congenital defects I suppose I would be happy I could get a definite answer for owner. But I wouldn't send a 48 hour-dead animal to our local VLA from previous experience of having them attach a little asterisk to every finding "*results not reliable in carcase with this degree of autolysis"

How dead is too dead for a PM in your opinion Michael? I try to take a few factors into account like was the animal fed hard concentrates, was the weather hot, was it likely to have had a fever. Anything that heats up the body will make a for a very smelly, very squidgy PM quite early on, whereas something that dies on a hill in the middle of winter will probably be ok for ages, right?

RE: Bovine heart PM

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 23:53:23 GMT

[quote user="Seadna "]

Thank you. The big mistake here was agreeing to do the PM in the first place I think :D

[/quote]

I disagree. There is a former VLA vet working out of a fallen stock collection centre in the North East of England and it's amazing how mushy they can be and still yield important results.The pilot study is on the AHDB Beef & Lamb site somewhere.

I encourage PMs.

RE: Bovine heart PM

Seadna — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 12:24:38 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]trust you changed for the time to suture it all back together[/quote]

I sewed it up with baler twine through big holes I made in the hide with a blade. Was pretty nauseated by the end, couldn't get away quick enough!

RE: Bovine heart PM

Iain Richards — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 10:54:50 GMT

I trust you changed for the time to suture it all back together!! At 48 hours you are unlikely to find anything of significance apart from gross pathology - peritonitis, pericarditis, aneurysm etc. PM change, odd distribution though.

RE: Bovine heart PM

Seadna — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 08:33:35 GMT

Thank you. The big mistake here was agreeing to do the PM in the first place I think :D

RE: Bovine heart PM

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 20 Oct 2016 23:50:19 GMT

I would think that is postmortem gas from bacteria after 48 hours. Unless you found gass bubbles in large muscles as well, then it would be clostridial.

Mariette