Calming aids

RE: Calming aids

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:54:41 GMT

Kind if back on topic and not wishing to take the lid off Pandora's Box again, has anyone tried Zoetis' new Sileo yet? For the uninitiated, which I was until I read the advert, it is dexmedetomidine gel. Sounds like it might have a use for calming stressed noise anxious dogs although it is rather expensive.

PS The dog is still barking, I've just requested the Antisocial Behaviour Investigation team to 'action further procedure'

RE: Calming aids

Beats — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 22:15:12 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Is ACP anxiolytic?[/quote]

I've started a new thread to continue this part of the dsicussion rather than replying here.

Dave

RE: Calming aids

Eilidh Corr — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 15:22:06 GMT

[quote user="Derek Lyon"]Could this be a side effect of the implant? Any advice please on trying to suppress this barking behaviour?[/quote]

Testosterone is the hormone of confidence, and in my experience it's not uncommon for dogs with mild fears to have these unmasked or worsened with either chemical or physical castration.

The barking is a behavioural response to the emotion of fear, so suppressing it isn't likely to be effective while the underlying emotion remains. Personally (as the owner of a reactive dog who is fearful by nature) I would suggest you undertake counter-conditioning to unfamiliar people and to vehicles as soon as possible - the website CARE for reactive dogs has a good breakdown of this process but an appropriately qualified behaviourist will be able to demonstrate. Unless you do this quickly and effectively, or avoid these experiences entirely for the duration of the implant's effects, it's possible that by the time the implant has worn off this new behaviour will have been learned and will be much harder to deal with. Your alternative is surgical removal of the implant. Can I ask what your reason was for using it in the first place? Apologies if I've forgotten.

RE: Calming aids

Derek Lyon — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 14:15:25 GMT

Hello. It's me again with our 4 yr old male Fox Terrier. We have had a Suprelorin implant given some 8 weeks ago and apart from noticing a reduction in testicle size all else is normal except that he is starting to bark at cars/motorbikes and groups of people. Could this be a side effect of the implant? Any advice please on trying to suppress this barking behaviour?

Yours in anticipation...Derek

RE: Calming aids

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 12:53:19 GMT

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]For the umpteenth time-I am not an Aussie![/quote]

Sorry - how did that happen, I ask myself?

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]he finally admitted that he said what he said to call a spade a spade and ask me if I had penis envy. It was a crass base as that, forget any other jungian/freudian connotation- it was an attempt at a sniggering put down, a sexual, sexist, intimidating[/quote]

Well, I can't speak for Michael, but I didn't read it as any of those things. If I had, I would have deleted it. I read it as merely highlighting a defunct idea (penis envy).

Michael Woodhouse - an apology from you to Aine for not being sufficiently clear would, I think, be the right thing at this point.

Failing that, the apology would be due from me, and I will delete that post.

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]there are some unprofessional comments appearing on this forum[/quote]

Really? - I'm aware of only one other at the moment (about which I had an indirect complaint the other day). My, er, judgement on the other one was that it was very clearly a joke - and not at anyone else's expense. I cannot be the arbiter of good or bad taste humour (except at the very extreme), so I let it stand.

RE: Calming aids

Aine Seavers — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 12:31:58 GMT

For the umpteenth time-I am not an Aussie!

I don't have any issue with forthright opinions, I do when they pretend to be what they are not-which Michael did finally admit to -he finally admitted that he said what he said to call a spade a spade and ask me if I had penis envy. It was a crass base as that, forget any other jungian/freudian connotation- it was an attempt at a sniggering put down, a sexual, sexist, intimidating, not to inform and enrich and enlighten parry- problem is he didn't know me and I have never backed off when challenged by anyone.

I can guarantee you envy of said apparatus never ever ever entered my thoughts-only a man could think a woman would want permanently what so often turns a small proportion of the population of male humans into those who think questions of penile envy have any place in most discussions.

That aside, often we are told to use a certain medication- in this case-acp- which I did, found wanting, found evidence from those with more experience that either Michael or I that it had issues-came to realise those issues were what I saw in my patients exposed to multiple episodes of the offending trigger-and so I changed my therapy. If Michael finds the opposite-fine- then he should work the case up, document the evidence and publish it-because it would be a heap easier to give acp and walk away from the case- in the interim, my experience with acp has been negative, it tied in with what others found-and so I changed my therapy-and my clients are a lot happier. Lots of vets do TPLOs because specialists recommend them- I am not convinced, but I dont use sexist, personally insulting comments against those who do it, and in this modern world of writer beware, there are some unprofessional comments appearing on this forum not allowed anywhere else that will come back to haunt the younger generation when they seek positions of governance and authority in later life.

Tomorrow is Saturday and far too beautiful a day to spend a nanosecond on this thread any more so I bid you all a happy weekend.

RE: Calming aids

Eilidh Corr — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 12:20:43 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Have I missed something, is anyone else able to point to any science which supports the above claims?[/quote]

Good post Arlo, thanks.

I haven't found much, other than the very small study already linked comparing premed with ACP and an alpha-2 agonist, which supports the argument that ACP increases measurable physiological stress (or that alpha-2s decrease it ). https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/ela/kliin/vk/vaisanen/perioper.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiC5ILelNrPAhVELcAKHQlAArcQFghMMAg&usg=AFQjCNFxsFJ_g7FLlshDmp-kYnlerGExLw&sig2=L5KyWr237BYq9Ap7uRKCgg

There has, however, been a reasonable amount of work done to show that other psychotropic medications are of benefit in sound phobias (see my previous post for authors) - while evidence for harm caused by ACP is not plentiful, is there any evidence to demonstrate its efficacy when used for this purpose? I haven't seen any.

RE: Calming aids

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 11:56:01 GMT

I wonder whether this thread represents 'the perfect storm': a clash between opinion and empirical evidence, between a Yorkshireman and an Aussie - of different sexes, to boot - (apologies for the stereotyping), and involving someone known for his forthright manner (which perhaps the other is not entirely familiar with).

I've been and done a bit of research into the argument, which essentially seems to come down to the opinion, expressed by behaviourists, that ACP is not suitable for noise phobias, against the experience of some practitioners that it is effective in practice.

I have found the following opinions expressed online:

ACP is not anxiolytic (example: Robert Falconer-Taylor, International Cat Care website).
ACP can cause behaviour disinhibition, thereby allowing aggressive behaviour to surface (e.g. Sarah Heath and John Bowen: Behaviour Problems in Small Animals, Practical Advice for the Veterinary Team)
ACP heightens sensitivity to sound (e.g. from same book as above, and video below)
ACP is a dissociative drug, so may heighten anxiety caused by noise (Karen Overall, on youtube here).

So I went to see if I could find any evidence.

Is ACP anxiolytic?
Lots of contradicting opinions here. Wikipedia (I know!), says not in the first paragraph, but then under administration says it is given to anxious dogs (uh?). Robert says emphatically not, but then Sarah Heath and Jon Bowen seem to imply in their book that it's the anxiolytic effect that causes behaviour disinhibition. This article in Vet Times says it is anxiolytic in horses (odd article, can't find the author, but the claim is referenced Ballard et al, 1982). This book (Veterinary Anesthesia by Alexandra Dugdale) says that 'it is generally believed that ACP is less anxiolytic than benzodiazepines').

Does ACP cause behaviour disinhibition?
I can't find any studies to support this.

Does ACP heighten sensitivity to sound?
I can't find any studies to support this.

Is ACP a dissociative drug which could cause the dog to be more frightened because it no longer understands what the noise is about?
I struggle with this one, because how would you know? I can't find any evidence to support it.

All I have been able to find so far are opinions, often presented as fact, which are not obviously supported with any studies.

Have I missed something, is anyone else able to point to any science which supports the above claims?

RE: Calming aids

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 01:13:05 GMT

This is getting repetitive. ACP is an anxiolytic, you can't re-write pharmacology on a whim. I have given individual examples of my own experience, that isn't the limit of my experience.

No one has given me a scrap of decent evidence that ACP makes these dogs worse; the multiple of anecdote does not = evidence. You can actually do a Phd in homeopathy (admittedly not via Oxbridge). I believe we have every right to question specialists about techniques, their methods etc. It's dangerous blindly listening to what people say, whatever their status.

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]Eilidh has provided several references that follow how arguments were raised about doing better than just acp- Sarah Heath and Jon in their behavioural book specifically write of the noise phobia worsening effects of Acp- You can also check out Karen Overall's work[/quote]

Crap references, referencing opinion articles and books.

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]You knew nothing good would come of your gonad comment- written as a direct question to me-at least be man enough to admit you did it in full knowledge that it had the potential to enflame and offend- that fact that it did neither to me personally except gain my distain. suggests it is you not Robert you needs to get out more. What is for sure is that in a face to face conversation at a veterinary meeting you would not have asked it, nor David support it.[/quote]

Ah - have you met many Yorkshire folk? There is an expression to "call a spade a spade". I would absolutely say the same thing to your face, be in not a scrap of doubt over that fact.

I will leave this (for now) with the following:

The Royal Society's motto 'Nullius in verba' is taken to mean 'take nobody's word for it'. It is an expression of the determination of Fellows to withstand the domination of authority and to verify all statements by an appeal to facts determined by experiment.

RE: Calming aids

Aine Seavers — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 23:48:20 GMT

The weather here too nice to be online so missed this latest post from you. Your latest assertion is again astounding.

1)An American Board Cert is available in Behaviour -not in Homeopathy- so to call Boarded Spec as some one qualified the black Arts is again astounding-in a negative way.

2)Modern Behavioural Science will often validate its work at the minutest biochemical level in the lab, something homeopathy doesn't do and behavioural research is published in peer-reviewed journals,something Homeopathy doesnt do-so to clump the 2 together is disingenuous and shows how little you know of modern behaviour yet somehow seem self-qualified to be the authority on it.

3)You don't have the monopoly on not questioning everything and everyone-your examples of your early experience of asking Bosses and others but now relying on your own questioning ability is just about what most vets I know do on a daily basis -from almost, if not before, the day they qualified. I am known by those who know me as being one the hardest persons to convince. Reps know to only provide me with published data and papers not their opinion, so to suggest I am anything other than that, when you don't know a person, is again arrogance without basis.

4)You propose your n=1 anecdotal owner experience as somehow more valid than the experience of others, myself included, who having seen dogs worsen on acp -who decided to investigate why and found plausible arguments over a period of time applied to a range of dogs that fitted what the animal was displaying-and so I changed my treatment protocols obeying the first rule of Med, First do no harm-if what the specialists and others said was true then sensory perception and noise sensitivity in a significant number of animals worsened-and THAT had been my personal observations with my cohort of animals- then best to investigate ways to improve the situation.

5) I am not a zealot about behaviour, I maintain a healthy scepticism about all disciplines- TPLOs replacing other stifle surgery with no evidence it was better and with no extra evidence when procedure is modified of greater gain- cf JSAP letter from Manning to summarise beautifully what so many of us think about super-priced complex surgeries replacing simpler more affordable and often as good as better original approaches.

6)I approached this thread with the mindset of an open discussion and brain storming as to possible options Martin could consider-I raised possible scenarios dependant on what could be found- I was met with the most vitriolic almost toxic replies, and of it being an argument- Why and where the discussion b/n colleagues derailed in a crass taunting deliberately provocative thread is beyond logic.

7)Eilidh has provided several references that follow how arguments were raised about doing better than just acp- Sarah Heath and Jon in their behavioural book specifically write of the noise phobia worsening effects of Acp- You can also check out Karen Overall's work. Perhaps with only one night a year where your dog gets exposed to acp you never get to see that- here where Fireworks and Storms are a regular event- many vets do see this deterioration and have moved off acp- so our environment has taken what 'book ‘and specialists ‘proposed- and proven strong support for their advice- so I now follow that path.

What you can do is work with a pharmacologist, collect blood from your dogs on acp that you use acp on normally -you believe they are perfectly ok on it so no ethical conflict-and then take cortisol levels and other biochemical markers etc, perhaps run ecgs using alivcor on your ph, and collect and collate other behavioural markers and then publish the data. I have long questioned the replacement of stilboestral with expensive alternatives, having never once seen or had 100s of vets on other lists report any issue with stilboestral. We had our AVA association here pay to do a review of it-stilboestal came out pretty clean. If you believe so strongly in acp being safe-do the same. My view is that we can do better, but if you can prove that a one off firework night scenario in a UK setting is safe-then that is equally fine.

8) You knew nothing good would come of your gonad comment- written as a direct question to me-at least be man enough to admit you did it in full knowledge that it had the potential to enflame and offend- that fact that it did neither to me personally except gain my distain. suggests it is you not Robert you needs to get out more. What is for sure is that in a face to face conversation at a veterinary meeting you would not have asked it, nor David support it.

8)Re Aussies; I am not one so can’t speak on their behalf, but can say in the 25yrs I have lived here and being very happily married to one- no Aussie male at any level of education - has felt the need to play such genre of cards in any level of debate I have ever enjoyed- which sort of says a lot about the true intellect and size of the man.

RE: Calming aids

Eilidh Corr — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 15:03:02 GMT

Michael I must take issue with your repeated criticisms of "these modern behaviourists" - yes, as in many areas of life there are plenty charlatans out there with various vague collections of letters after their names which amount to nothing, but there are also numerous veterinary surgeons who have completed degrees, PhDs, Masters and diplomas as well as, in some cases, having recognised specialist status in the subject. In addition to their academic knowledge these individuals have a vast collective experience of applied canine behaviour. It's pretty unbecoming that you, with your layman's knowledge of the subject area, should level criticism at other more knowledgeable members of the veterinary profession simply because you don't understand. I don't perform any orthopaedic surgery myself, so I would not have the audacity to suggest to an orthopaedic specialist that a lack of published evidence for their preferred approach rendered it void. This is the grey area where their greater experience has value.

There may be a lack of specific research showing ACP to be harmful, and you are right that ethical approval probably wouldn't be granted now (because most vets understand the potential for ACP to be harmful). However, it is widely accepted by the aforementioned, more knowledgeable, vets that it may have adverse effects because of what is known about its pharmacology, and there is substantial evidence to support the use of benzodiazepines and other psychotropic medications in the treatment of sound phobias (yes I can give you links if you wish - but you could always look up Gruen, Crowell-Davis, Ibaniz and Anzola, Herron, for starters). I know that your own experience of a dog with an unchanged heart rate leads you to assume that the dog is emotionally unaffected, but given that one of the recognised side effects of ACP is bradycardia, I'm not convinced this gives us any useful information. I use ACP in premeds for respiratory cases as well - not because it's anxiolytic but because these dogs require sedation and big doses of opioids or alpha-2 agonists are more likely to kill them.

I am happy to disagree with you on this, and I understand why you hold this view (it was one shared by many of my clients once upon a time - the "little yellow pills" are like magic) but I fail to see what harm I am doing by prescribing recognised amnesics such as alprazolam or diazepam instead. Dogs tend to cope very well with these meds on board, and while I am entirely supportive of owners who wish to undertake behaviour modification, many don't have the motivation and so these drugs offer a cheap and effective way of helping in the short term. They also often don't need to be given at the mammoth doses required by ACP, and clients find the effects acceptable. It's a no-brainer.

RE: Calming aids

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 10 Oct 2016 23:07:13 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

"why do you think there is no evidence for something; often its because it cannot be proven." Michael Woodhouse

Oh dear, I am sure you don't mean exactly what you are saying because that is just what the homeopaths always say.......

[/quote]

That is exactly my point - where is the evidence for much of this dogma spouted by these modern behaviourists? Seemingly there is none. To my mind that makes them just as bad as the homeopaths. You can find many of them with all sorts of obscure letters after their names - highly qualified in the black arts.

RE: Calming aids

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 10 Oct 2016 20:10:57 GMT

"why do you think there is no evidence for something; often its because it cannot be proven." Michael Woodhouse

Oh dear, I am sure you don't mean exactly what you are saying because that is just what the homeopaths always say.......

But as another oldie I do agree with you that ACP has always worked perfectly for my patients, my own dogs, also when flying around the world with them. And if you look in the textbooks, what do they advise to give as anxiolyticum to a dog in respiratory distress? Acepromazine. And not because you want to paralyse or immobilise an annoying patient, but because it needs to be made less anxious or it will die!

Mariette

RE: Calming aids

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 10 Oct 2016 18:14:59 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Let's face it, 'I hope you are not suffering badly from penis envy' was always going to be one that could be misinterpreted.[/quote]Given that due to Aine's gender she is probably understandably lacking in the penis department, she has got a lot more balls that some on here!

RE: Calming aids

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:50:26 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Robert Falconer-Taylor"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I hope you are not suffering too badly from penis envy............

[/quote]

WOW, I find that really insulting. Maybe because I have not used this forum for long, but I am shocked by this comment to Aine!

[/quote]

Interestingly I read Michael's post somewhat differently to you, the impression I got was that he was likening some of the current animal behaviour theories to disproved human psychology theories such as penis envy.[/quote]

Yes, as did I.

This thread seems to have got a bit out of hand whilst my back was turned. Having read start to finish, and without remembering precisely who wrote what (apart from the above), I think the discussion has become far too personal, because on the one side we have a lot of scepticism, and on the other, those who are offended by scepticism about (presumably) their 'trade', and then start firing back!

I think one needs to go slightly beyond all that. Those taking offence really shouldn't be sitting there suggesting that those who disagree are all ill-informed luddites. If they are, then show the evidence. And if they are, why is that? Is there lots of new evidence on the subject that has not yet filtered down? Share it!

Equally, sceptics, tread carefully. It doesn't serve the debate well if people are so fierce in their scepticism that proponents of the alternative viewpoint walk off the pitch in disgust. I DO NOT mean that things shouldn't be challenged robustly, just that you should be mindful if you are simultaneously seeming to criticise someone's area of expertise, and try to compensate for that by being super-polite.

Let's face it, 'I hope you are not suffering badly from penis envy' was always going to be one that could be misinterpreted.

RE: Calming aids

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 10 Oct 2016 15:43:00 GMT

[quote user="Robert Falconer-Taylor"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I hope you are not suffering too badly from penis envy............

[/quote]

WOW, I find that really insulting. Maybe because I have not used this forum for long, but I am shocked by this comment to Aine!

[/quote]

RE: Calming aids

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 10 Oct 2016 14:40:36 GMT

Being as I seem to have opened Pandora's Box, perhaps I'd better just describe the dog's behaviour. I alternates between sleeping apparently contentedly in the back yard then starts barking at any sound/action that attracts its attention. It seems the basic issue is that it is bored to death and any little distraction like me opening a window, a noisy passer-by or another dog coming into the surgery, it know they're coming before I do, is the most exciting thing that has happened all day.

It went away for 6 months earlier in the year, presumably to wherever the daughter was living because now she's back, it's back, and for the first 2-3 weeks it hardly barked but the got progressively got worse again. My take on this is that to start with it was happy because maybe it had had a bit more of an interesting life for that 6 months but now boredom has set in it's back to it's old habits of the previous 2 years.

I think Aine is possibly naive and overly-optimistic over the actions of the local council and RSPCA but there was no need for others to rip her apart.

RE: Calming aids

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 21:22:32 GMT

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]I just love how you base your assertion that it's an appropriate drug for noise phobias on "practical evidence" which sounds like a case series of one meanwhile dismissing the views of those far more qualified and experienced than you. There IS a scarcity of evidence in this field, like there is in much of our work. That doesn't mean those working in this field are all idiots to be patronised.[/quote]

Do you realise how dangerous a view point that is? Lots of human and animal patients have come to harm by us simply following like sheep. The thing with ACP is that it's not just me - it's been used by thousands of vets for lots of years on probably millions of patients, to generally excellent efficacy. You see in this thread various people giving their anecdotes about trying other methods and them failing. People have liked and started my posts in agreement. I've had PMs and discussions with vet students seeing practice. I've even tried diazepam, plug ins and desensitisation in the past. It's hardly the experience of n=1.

Ironically I do hardly any first opinion small animal work any more. I don't really care how you want to treat them. I do care when unsubstantiated ideas seemingly permeate the profession with not a single scrap of evidence in support of the viewpoints. I could give you lots of examples of things we used to do that are now considered harmful, with building evidence. These theories would be so easy and relatively cheap to test. It really should be incumbent on these people spreading the word to prove that their new idea is better than the little yellow pills. Something I say to vet students quite a lot - why do you think there is no evidence for something; often its because it cannot be proven.

RE: Calming aids

bob lehner — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 21:14:44 GMT

Jazzy three page ad for Sileo (dexmedetomidine) in current Vet Record - being marketed for treating 'Noise anxiety'.

Don't know much about it - but is it not mainly going to be working as a sedative? Given at a low dose, repeat every 2 hours as necessary.

Wonder how the behavioural bods would rate this - same/better/worse than ACP?

Zoetis obviously launching it for the fireworks season.

RE: Calming aids

Eilidh Corr — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 15:02:13 GMT

I just love how you base your assertion that it's an appropriate drug for noise phobias on "practical evidence" which sounds like a case series of one meanwhile dismissing the views of those far more qualified and experienced than you. There IS a scarcity of evidence in this field, like there is in much of our work. That doesn't mean those working in this field are all idiots to be patronised.

RE: Calming aids

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 14:50:00 GMT

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]There have been no specific studies that I am aware of so much is anecdotal, although there is this small but potentially relevant paper[/quote]

Moderately interesting paper. Low numbers. My main issue would be looking at the doses used - the medetomidine dose is what we use as a pre-med, but the ACP dose is very low. We used to use 0.5ml/10kg of 2mg/ml (max dose 2ml), even then a lot of dogs were poorly sedated. The alpha 2 is much more reliable and does lead to smoother anaesthetics. If we could achieve similar levels of sedation with the 2 drugs then I think we could make more of a fair comparison.

It's still got nothing to do with the viscous belief that ACP is bad for use around bonfire night, when a lot of practical evidence suggests this is not the case. I said previously it made my old dog sleep through - with a normal sleeping heart rate - despite the bangs.

RE: Calming aids

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 14:48:18 GMT

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]

And to save me the copying and pasting, here's Rachel Casey's excellent site with full referencing at the bottom of the page. Unless she's another vet whose work you'll dismiss as mere opinion.

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/implications-of-punishment.php

[/quote]

Her website is mere opinion - it's the nature of most websites. I can find you a heap of references that would let me write a very authoritative sounding piece on homeopathy - you need to follow up on the references.

So we have 8 opinion articles. Just citing someone who wrote something that agrees with you isn't evidence, or if it is it is extremely low quality evidence. Some even quoted from books and we know that's just lazy.

There are 2 experiments around 50 years old conducted on small numbers of animals that would no longer get ethical approval. I'm not sure they are relevant to real life.

One set of interesting sounding conference proceedings I can't find via google or any of the databases - but they must be good because they are regularly cited, if not published. Not published = not peer reviewed.

One simple observational study on guide dogs blood pressure - stressy dogs have higher blood pressure - I think we probably knew that but a nice little paper showing it.

One old human paper - not sure how relevant as I can't easily get full text.

Hardly supported by evidence. Follow them up yourself.

RE: Calming aids

Eilidh Corr — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 09:43:16 GMT

I believe Daniel Mills at Lincoln has done some work on management of noise phobias but I can't access his paper. Clough did work on lab animals published in 1982 including work on ACP, which was shown to cause reactivity and distress when animals already sensitised to noise were given it and then exposed to noise. There have been no specific studies that I am aware of so much is anecdotal, although there is this small but potentially relevant paper: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2002.63.969

RE: Calming aids

Eilidh Corr — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 09:29:32 GMT

And to save me the copying and pasting, here's Rachel Casey's excellent site with full referencing at the bottom of the page. Unless she's another vet whose work you'll dismiss as mere opinion.

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/implications-of-punishment.php

RE: Calming aids

Eilidh Corr — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 09:26:01 GMT

Are we trying to claim that classical and operant conditioning isn't a thing now? I can't believe that my entire understanding of learning theory has been built on a fallacy. Wow.

Negative reinforcement is the removal of an unpleasant stimulus, so I think you mean positive punishment. This is undesirable for a number of reasons, including its potential to induce a fearful emotional state which inhibits learning, and because it reduces the animal's confidence to offer alternative behaviours, which slows training. Negative punishment or positive reinforcement are fundamentally more likely to lead to formation of new behaviours because they meet a need or desire, and we can harness this to elicit desirable behaviours. In simple terms, telling an animal (with a level of cognitive function much simpler than our own) what *not* to do doesn't give it any information about what it should do instead. So negative reinforcement is making work for ourselves. In practice bitches and littermates tend to use negative punishment in response to undesirable behaviour.

This is basic learning theory. It's been studied widely and is accepted by veterinary behaviourists and ethologists worldwide. Behaviourism has many limitations, not least that it focuses only on measurable elements. But that should please those who seek pure evidence - there is no shortage of that in this area.

These theories which you are dismissing are not something conjured up by some Cesar Milan dog whisperer, but solid concepts founded in laboratories.

On the ACP point, I'm willing to bow to the superior knowledge of vets who've worked in and studied behavioural medicine for decades in the same way I'm willing to bow to the superior knowledge of those with greater experience in and study of orthopaedics, or exotics, or dentistry.