Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 06 Oct 2016 19:49:54 GMT

One tip for bleeding sheep. I used an old car fanbelt. the farmer just pulls back holding it around the sheep's neck as low as practical. Just as a pig, the sheep almost automatically pushes forward and feels sort of comfy and reassured hanging against the belt. If you then look well, you see the hair move just that little bit as the jugular fills up. And then it becomes a quick almost unthinking routine. Only thing is, if it takes too long they sometimes faint if the farmer pulls too hard and the little sheep brain gets no oxygen.

Mariette

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 04 Oct 2016 08:11:40 GMT

Makes me wish the GYN stick had been around when I was in mixed practice

Wynne

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Caleb King — Tue, 04 Oct 2016 06:04:23 GMT

Yes, they are both small and large dairy breeds. Yes they occur in pastured cattle, I reliably see two + a year. The GYN stick has been a marvellous thing, although I haven't used mine yet my colleagues of the fairer sex have been able to undo them easily using a GYN stick and that suits me fine. I've done a caesarian on one that was a half twist but a closed cervix, but I agree 99% of the time its not needed.

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 24 Sep 2016 23:21:10 GMT

Yes to Jersey cows.

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 24 Sep 2016 23:18:59 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]80% seem to be in big dairy cows,[/quote]

Taranaki NZ and Rotorua would have been 95% Jersey for higher butterfat , but much smaller cows.

Anyone had an uterine torsion in a Jersey cow??

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 24 Sep 2016 20:33:33 GMT

Weird. I personally did 4 in one week (2 in one night) earlier this year. ~80% seem to be in big dairy cows, but I see them in beef too. Helped a colleague with one in a stumpy Frisian one handed earlier this year. If big cows are predisposed (I could believe) small cows aren't 100% safe.

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:55:59 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] I've been to 100's of torsions[/quote]

I was in intensive dairy practice for 5 years in NZ and never heard of or saw a uterine torsion [one in a dead mare].

They were all outdoors all the year though [???]

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Seadna — Sat, 24 Sep 2016 17:20:33 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]Where do people make skin incision? [/quote]

I open high in the flank, especially if I'm on the right hand side. It stops any guts falling out and it hurts my back less than bending low for suturing. I feel it helps to create fewer adhesions. It also makes for a nice hard pull-out for the farmer - make him think twice about using a ridiculously muscled bull on an unsuitable cow next time. Last benefit is that if I do have to come back next year to open her again, I have loads of space to cut caudal and ventral. I rarely every pull the calf with the farmer in an effort to maintain a bit of sterility and also because I am absolutely anal about getting the navel broken correctly.

I'm a girl so most of my clients will have the sense to call one other person for help for a caesarian which is why I get away with not hefting calves out by myself.

What does everyone do with that bloody cow that won't stop lowing during an op. Every single increase in abdominal pressure with that lovely low-pitched 'maawwwwwwww' and the rumen or some guts threaten to pop out!

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Seadna — Sat, 24 Sep 2016 16:53:01 GMT

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Julian Earl — Thu, 22 Sep 2016 09:04:08 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

That was one of my tasks in my first job - driving to various markets in Cumbria to scrapie test the Herdwicks. Used to do it over a few days, probably bled a few thousand sheep. I became pretty good at it- the farmers were supposed to clip up their necks but, to be honest, I didn't care either way. Good days! I still often bleed big hairy dogs without bothering clipping....once you get the 'feel' for finding that jugular, you never forget!

[/quote]

Hello Gillian, I don't think "feel" is the right word as you need only need to line the needle up with the jugular groove, pointing at the lateral canthus of the eye, and unlike seeing/palpating the jugular in a cow or horse, simply identifying the position is adequate with a little practice., wool or no wool.

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 22:56:26 GMT

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 16:36:10 GMT

There is more skill in the holding of the sheep than the blood sampling. Some farmers just cannot do it. The technique is described well, but the sheep needs to be held properly, still, with skin not too tight on the neck. Beware horns on horned sheep as you concentrate on the neck.

I generally find it very straightforward bleeding sheep, but you get the odd one that is a bastard to do - usually the moment you think you've cracked it. I prefer doing them out of the side door of a trailer as I can do them standing up and rest the tubes on the mudguard.

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Julian Earl — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 15:25:34 GMT

David: blood-testing sheep:

A knack or a skill one or the other I wasn't taught but followed an article in In Practice in about 1988 I think involving having the sheep standing, head elevated at about ten degrees, drawan imaginary line [or a real one!] from the lateral canthus of the eye down parallel with the trachea and you will be on top of the jugular groove. Insert the needle, pointing at the canthus and hy presto. With practice you don't need to clip or pluck wool just get the position right and the wool is no problem. Fast and easy, with practice

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Eilidh Corr — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 12:42:14 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]One thing I could never get the hang of was blood sampling sheep [/quote]

I was the foot and mouth generation so I emerged from vet school proficient in this. We're booked to sample 1500 next Monday if you fancy a bit of CPD many hands make light work!

It's usually more anterior than you expect, and you need to block off low down at the thoracic inlet. It's one of those things that's so easy once it clicks that you can't really explain it - but I remember vividly how hard it was to begin with. Genuinely important that they're held properly - they need to be bearing weight on their forelimbs, not hung up by their head.

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Wren — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 12:36:24 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Wren"] MV test 200 ewes who keep their jugulars 18" off the floor. [/quote]

One thing I could never get the hang of was blood sampling sheep - that might be a good tip to share (not that I'll see many in the future). Always seemed to me there was a knack to it, like sexing kittens.

[/quote]

The first test I did I had to get the boss out in the end as I really struggled. The next was hard, then somehow I seemed to get the magic touch and could get virtually every single one first time. No need to remove any fleece/wool or anything. Everyone asked for me as I was the quickest in the practice. I have literally no idea how it happened though! If I ever got one I was struggling with I'd get the farmer just to chuck it back in with the bunch, and not tell me the next time it came round and usually hit it first time. And most of our pedigree herds were Texels, which are short and stubby with piggy horrid thick necks.

I have finished with LA work now, but I always swore I was going to invent a raised race that went past me at about 4' off the floor so they were just at a perfect height!

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

David Mills — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 12:26:22 GMT

[quote user="Wren"] MV test 200 ewes who keep their jugulars 18" off the floor. [/quote]

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Wren — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 12:18:34 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

Inteesting comment; that's one reason why I like working with sheep; no aggression/no kicks or biting, on occasion just walking fields, observing in the sunshine.

[/quote]

And the burning fire in your knees and calves after 400 squat/stands to MV test 200 ewes who keep their jugulars 18" off the floor. And the lanolin greasiness from the fleeces of the same 200 ewes that takes days to get off your hands. And the ever-pervading pong of wet fleece. And the maggots .....

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

macflea — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 11:42:19 GMT

It's actually quite difficult to get a farm vet job in the UK, i could never figure it out.I moved to the UK with 8 years of farm experience from Ireland and new Zealand after my non vet girlfriend. I sent out loads of cvs, i rang practices and and even called unannounced to no avail. No luck with agencies .even though i had zero experiance with small animals ,it was easier for me to get a small animal job. I spent 5 years in smallies in the uk before returning to farm work at home in ireland

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Iain Richards — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 10:17:52 GMT

Going back the the OP, "What would it take?" This crops up regulalry at the Lancaster Final Year Seminar. so if Clive applied to me, I'd realise that with 20+years experience, he can handle the clients. His surgical technique is also likely to be good (too many LA Vets don't respect tissues). If he's kept an interest in farm work, he's likely to be reasonably au-fait with infectious diseases and it doesn't take too long to interpret a rectal ultrasound scan.

This leaves some of the tweaks for repro and getting to grips with herd health planning and nutrition. Some SVS and BCVA courses should help with that.

One area is of course TB testing. If you are still on the panel, and don't mind doing it for a while, that could be a good route back in.

Good Luck - but make sure your back/shoulder/knees are working first!

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Julian Earl — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 09:32:03 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

I love cattle, and being around them seems to induce a state of calmness and relaxation. I grew up with them, and worked on dairy and beef farm when I left school - really do miss being around them

Serious question - what would it take to get in to cattle practice after 20 years as a SA only vet, and would there be the work available?

[/quote]

Inteesting comment; that's one reason why I like working with sheep; no aggression/no kicks or biting, on occasion just walking fields, observing in the sunshine.

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Rachel Brown — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 08:11:54 GMT

Thanks Michael

I always think of this as the calf is shuttling past me on the way out- must try and think of it sooner so I can get a grip!

Since my very first solo section, many many years ago, I have done this and still do! To help get calves out I use normal head ropes that have a small loops either end. I create bigger 'loops' that will fit over the calf's feet. The farmer applies them when I reach them out of the wound. The farmer gets a grip and I figure if I ever need to I can sling it over my shoulder and pull.

In reality if the calf causing problems getting out I just make the holes bigger! Although if they have tried hard with the calving jack I have had to get someone to push per vaginum to release the head.

Wynne- my first job we only had a pressure cooker on the hob to sterilise our kits and it worked really well. I have a Prestige 'pressure cooker type'autoclave in the garage for doing my kits when on call to save me calling to the office.

Rachel

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 22:45:05 GMT

I'm loving this!

[quote user="Rachel Brown "]What is the Gyn Stik like?[/quote]

Useful. Vetsonic import them in the UK and I was an early adopter. I helped them film a promo video that was on a loop at last years BCVA. The film crew were arriving at 1pm. We had a number of farmers lined up if we needed to fake it. At 1.05 a genuine call came in with a cow messing about and not getting on with it - managed to find them a genuine torsion to film.

I ruptured a ulnar collateral ligament on my thumb which made calvings challenging when in a pot - so I used it a number of times during my recovery. You need to get the ropes above the fetlock and then very easy to untwist. We all carry them in our cars. The assistants (girls) love them and use them routinely. I use them for the 1 in 10 I can't easily unswing. Great for beef. Can use in a crush.

https://youtu.be/nundEeWzflU

If it means as a boss giving back up to younger vets I get dragged out of my warm bed less (and it does) I see them as a sound investment and a useful tool in the armoury. I'm not being paid to say this!

[quote user="Rachel Brown "]?? Does anyone have any tips for how they handle the umbilical cord during C/S? Did two huge ones today and they both broke very close to the calf's navel. [/quote]

Had a talk from a Belgian vet and they take hold of cord close to calf as farmer is pulling out of the side to make the break further from the abdomen. I've tried it and it works, but sometimes I find myself pulling too with some of the older, decrepit farmers!

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Rachel Brown — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 21:00:40 GMT

Michael

What is the Gyn Stik like? I have seen it but unsure what it would be like in big beef calves.

We only have a few torsions. If I couldn't fix by swinging we will go to caesar before rolling. I have no problem knocking a cow using Reuffs but our farmers usually don't have the nice straw bedded pens and their suckler cows are pretty insane!

Planipart- very expensive but we still use it I give it IM once decision made to cut and it seems to work well.

?? Does anyone have any tips for how they handle the umbilical cord during C/S? Did two huge ones today and they both broke very close to the calf's navel.

Thanks

rachel

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

David Mills — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 16:39:49 GMT

There was touching y'Honour. Though as we were both inside the uterus it was allowed. That, and Tylan. Farmer mainly grumbling about how twins weren't diagnosed - thankfully it was my boss who did the routine visits

RE: Tangent: nobody wants to talk about cows, eh?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 14:56:32 GMT

I hope his hands were sterile!

Did you shake hands inside?

Wynne