Vaccination compatibilities

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 14:51:19 GMT

Exactly In these circumstances we would both give 2 injections of the same brand. I'll do the same as you even if the 6 week vaccination is the same brand as I stock, but, when owners are reluctant to give the final one, then 2 arguments are better than 1

Wynne

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 14:33:24 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I often find that a puppy has been given its 1st vaccine at 6 weeks, so if I give another of a different brand 4 weeks later, it's a 10 week finish. I've therefore got 2 arguments to justify restarting.

Wynne

[/quote]If I see a puppy vaccinated at 6 weeks I consider that void and restart the course with a second vaccine and a finish at 12 weeks. If they've had a 10 week finish I recommend a 3rd at 14-16 wks. i just do not trust a 6/10 week protocol whatever brand has been used.

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Bob Russell — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 11:19:51 GMT

Lepto is considered a core vaccine in countries where lepto is endemic. It also has the complexity of the various strains.

I suspect WSAVA just copped out a bit as some countries claim to be lepto free and vaccination protocols exclude it.

I tend to use WSAVA recommendations to supplement data sheets rather than water them down. I don't mix lepto strains and will try to match vaccine brands or give an additional lepto. At the moment Zoetis are providing second lepto s FOC so I take advantage of that.

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 08:21:01 GMT

Wynne

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Aine Seavers — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 01:50:26 GMT

Agree you can't stock all brands which is why we don't. And given as noticed earlier-some manufacturers cross share so what is Virbac here is Companion Nobi (but what is shared between 2 vaccine companies varies from country to country) then one has to wonder about the guidelines yet again making no sense in actual front line practice. Equally, If a Nobivac says single intranasal from 4 weeks suffices then it doesn't matter what you follow up with- and again if a single 12 week Protech is licenced until 15mths of age or 3 years- again it doesn't matter what went before. No one here in Australia bothers about the previous vet's brand of vaccine, only what it covered for. There is also work to suggest following an intranasal with another intranasal even one year later may not be ideal as enough immunity still present to inactivate the new dose but not to combat field infection-and another than using intranasal either side of an injectable CC is a valid option esp in the face of high levels of infection in the area. We had to use the latter regime as advised by one of the top 3 resp disease vet specialist when hit with horrendous canine cough epidemic- using John's regime got us out of disaster and kept vulnerable pups and old back yard zero street immunity dogs protected when they had been dropping like flies.

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

grumpyoldman — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 00:14:40 GMT

[quote user="Lara Brunori"](stocking all the vaccines brands on the market would be an economical suicide).[/quote]

Not really just less profitable when it comes to the contracted discounts ,but as they are loss leaders anyway these days not a massive problem TBH .

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Lara Brunori — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 23:39:34 GMT

Hi,

I phoned the VMD today and they said that since there are no compatibilitity studies, if you use different brands to booster then you are off licence. That does not mean you can not do it, you can always claim it on your clinical judgment, but if "something" goes wrong then you're exposed and potentially liable.

What we decided in the practice is that for the first 2 course and the first annual booster we'll try to stick with the same brand as much as possible, afterwards we'll follow the WSAVA guidelines which "allows" different brands to be used during a life time.

We are aware that this might not be the "best" way forward but I think it's the most likely to work for us (stocking all the vaccines brands on the market would be an economical suicide).

All the best,

Lara

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 23:15:15 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Are you saying the WSAVA vaccination guidelines (as above) are wrong?[/quote]

Yes. They don't even consider lepto a core vaccine FFS.

We use the Eurican vaccines so 9 & 12 weeks. See a lot of puppies that have had other brands and will always recommend a full course. It's lovely saying WSAVA guidelines say it's ok, but you are off licence and have no back up from the drug company IF something goes wrong. If another shot of vaccine is a deal breaker then you probably can't afford a puppy.

A small number (I'd guess 10%) decide to just have one shot, but these tend to be the people who don't keep up with boosters etc.

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Emily Rainbow — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 20:41:10 GMT

I have a gold standard vs sensible chat with owners so they can make a decision. Partners here have been using different brands for different jabs since the practice opened with no known issues. (Lepto 4 aside). We use vanguard 7 but have one box of nobivac L4 for those people.

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Rob Loxley — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 15:01:57 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Primary course has to be compatible.............I always tell people who phone asking for quotations for 2nd vac that I won't do it if it isn't compatible- they'll have to restart[/quote]

Are you saying the WSAVA vaccination guidelines (as above) are wrong?

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 14:30:36 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] unless they were travelling abroad or going to Somerset for their holidays[/quote]

Which is why I use a camel for my picture as I have webbed feet

Neil (born and living in Zummerset)

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 14:14:51 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Primary course has to be compatible[/quote]Why? You are vaccinating against the same diseases. DHPL is still DHPL whether its brand A or B. There is an argument that the serotypes may be different but it is so marginal as to be indistinguishable. Look at it logically, otherwise how could brand A protect against the same diseases as brand B ? Apart from Versican which is a 2b CPV strain all the others are 2 or 2a yet they still claim cross immunity albeit from my research this is b*ll*cks. They can't have their cake and eat it.

I wouldn't mix different vaccines in the same syringe and L4 is a different story but anything else goes.

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Richard Carter — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 13:17:58 GMT

Virbac Canigen IS nobivacc - nobivacc make it and bottle for virbac and virbac have reciprocal agreement with the cat vaccines - ie virbac product branded under different company.

The lepto issue is theoretical - if the 2 new strains of disease doesn't exist in UK, what is the point in vaccinating against it - anyone doing routine Leishmania for UK based dogs yet?

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 12:51:32 GMT

Primary course has to be compatible.............I always tell people who phone asking for quotations for 2nd vac that I won't do it if it isn't compatible- they'll have to restart. Boosters, doesn't matter.

Wynne

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

ChrisBVSc — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 12:39:11 GMT

As per what the WSAVA guidlines above suggest, it doesn't personally concern me if the 2nd vacc is a different brand, except L2 followed by L4 - in which case give a 2nd L4 later on.

For puppies seen elsewhere for 1st vacc with a different product to ours, I've found a quick discussion with the owner usually sorts out the dilemma. I tell them what the manufacturer says, and if they want "full backup" in the unlikely event of a problem then they should restart the course using our vaccines. Most go for this option. If they tell me they're happy to have a 2nd vacc with us and leave it at that, then I note down their decision & can relax knowing I have "informed consent."

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Bob Russell — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 12:13:01 GMT

I try not to mix the lepto components but have no real issues with live components. A mix of brands over a lifetime may not be that bad a thing!

All our patients have L4 and I keep a box of Nobivac for those that have started elsewhere. This will get more complicated as more brands become L4!

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 09:11:30 GMT

I don't know about other vaccine brands, but for Nobivac if the pup is over 10 weeks old the license says it only needs a single DHP, and then a booster in a year. So if it had a DHP from a different manufacturer at 8 weeks it doesn't matter as we're still going by the license. We have switched to Lepto4, so if they've had their 1st vacc with a Lepto2 I am recommending they have two Lepto4s.

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 08:58:43 GMT

A rose is a rose by any other name! I have no problem giving second vaccines from a different brand so long as the core diseases are covered. The only issues I can see are if say you started with coronovirus with the first vaccine and the brand used for the second didn't (which most don't) then obviously there wouldn't be full immunity but its hardly a deal breaker for me. Or if the first vaccine was L2 and the second L4 I might advise a second L4 but the two new strains are hardly endemic in the UK and I wouldn't push it unless they were travelling abroad or going to Somerset for their holidays. Anything the manufacturer's say is just protectionism.

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Braden Collins — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 08:18:02 GMT

This seems to be a common belief in the UK where you need to "follow the data sheet or else".

I never came across this issue in New Zealand or in Australia, and I'm more than happy to boost with different brands.

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

Rob Loxley — Wed, 31 Aug 2016 23:31:52 GMT

From the WSAVA vaccination guidelines:

60. May I use different vaccine brands (manufacturers) during the vaccination program? Yes. It may even be desirable to use vaccines from different manufacturers during the life of an animal, because different products may contain different strains (e.g. of feline calicivirus). However, it is not recommended to mix vaccines that contain different strains (e.g. FCV or Leptospira serogroups) during a primary vaccination programme.

61. Is it OK to mix different manufacturer’s products during the primary course? Core MLV vaccines from the different international suppliers are similar in composition and may be mixed during the primary course (e.g. if a puppy has an 8–9 week vaccine from one veterinarian and then moves to another veterinarian who uses a different product range). Manufacturers will not support this practice (and will advise against it) because they have not undertaken studies to prove compatibility of their products with those of other manufacturers. It may also be acceptable to use non-core vaccines from different manufacturers, with the exception of Leptospira vaccines where a first dose with a two-serogroup product, and a second dose with a four-serogroup product, would not induce immunity to the additional two serogroups contained in the four-way vaccine. The same principle applies to FCV vaccines (see FAQ 60 above).

RE: Vaccination compatibilities

grumpyoldman — Wed, 31 Aug 2016 23:30:34 GMT

Officially you must follow the yellow brick road , otherwise known as the data sheet . If you give the second dose at 10-12 weeks and test antibody levels you will find immunity most of the time . If you then boost between 6 and 12 months on, most will have adequate immunity for life ,then along comes the practice policy and the need for bums on seats to find those all important dentals and lumps etc Oh and all those other things you can sell at the same time .So you will probably then have to bring them back for an L2 or L4 which probably needs doing every 4-6 months if you think its a problem.