Grass seeds and poulticing

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

SMcelvaney — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 21:56:14 GMT

I thought that there may be a newer poultice/version out there that people are using in sa practice. Maybe not! Must buy some animalintex...

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Rob Loxley — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 19:30:25 GMT

[quote user="SMcelvaney"]Does anybody have any poultices that they use in small animal practice? [/quote]

Animalintex

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

SMcelvaney — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 18:33:43 GMT

I used to use animalintex for suspect grass seeds when in mixed practice, with good results. often when I removed the bandage 2 days later, there would be a grass seed sitting there. made me look great

since moving into small animal practice, nowhere seems to have a poultice. I think from a clients perspective they are a great idea, as they are minimally invasive and little lost by trying them.

Does anybody have any poultices that they use in small animal practice?

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 18:07:29 GMT

Boots sell magnesium sulphate paste

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/22573

If you are handling hay and get a thistle thorn in your thumb it hurts like hell - a good blob of that and a dry dressing and it will be out in the morning. Same with a pesky wood splinter.

I assumed through maceration of tissue. I don't actually care exactly how it works.

I've never poulticed a pet though - but I don't see why not

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 14:11:41 GMT

Osmosis is probably not the most important bit of poulticing but on that aspect my understanding is this: salt and water both migrate into outer layers of skin, scabs, fibrin clots. Concentration there then draws water in to those layers from extracellular fluid, where it is of course immediately replaced from blood or lymph. So outer layers of skin, scabs, fibrin clots get soft and soggy. At the same time the outward flow of lymph may not be specially beneficial but it can't be bad.

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Virginia Campbell — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 13:33:57 GMT

" I suppose skin is the semi-permeable membrane?"

Sadly not or I could fit into size 10 jeans after a nice dip in the sea

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Bob Russell — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 11:51:28 GMT

Except honey comes from all over the world. Some is not really honey at all. It contains bacterial spores that could be dangerous. Not sure how real the risks are but I am a bit touchy as we have European Foul Brood within a few miles of my new shiny bee colonies!!!

Honey is for eating!

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 09:50:42 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]All else being equal higher molecular weight is better, doubt if it makes any difference in practice.[/quote]

So honey might be the best of all with sugar next??

I suppose skin is the semi-permeable membrane?

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Beats — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 01:15:55 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Osmotic pressure (if using a water-soluble salt)[/quote]

I've heard osmosis described for poultices before when I've tried to get my head around mechanism of action (other than just maceration of tissues).

For a poultice to be causing osmotic pressure, does there need to be a partially-permeable membrane present and, if so, what is this in this application?

Also, if there is higher osmotic pressure in the poultice (and osmosis was occurring) would that not lead to water being drawn away from the skin thus dehydrating it? My impression is more of maceration when I've applied poultices in past (seldom and only horses).

Just preparing myself for some day being faced with a work-experience student who knows more GCSE biology than I do

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 23 Jul 2016 00:40:42 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]It's just a handy salt [/quote]

Although I understand my calculation formula perfectly [yeah, right] do you get more osmotic pressure with ions of a higher or lower molecular weight ie is Nacl better than MgSO4 or sugar etc.??

[/quote]

All else being equal higher molecular weight is better, doubt if it makes any difference in practice.

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Rob Loxley — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 22:40:27 GMT

[quote user="svn"]but never (IME) used in SA practice?[/quote]

Have we been reading different threads??

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

svn — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 22:18:36 GMT

In my limited knowledge as a horse owner but a SA RVN, I've always wondered why poultices are so often used with equines, but never (IME) used in SA practice?

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Anthony Todd — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 21:02:53 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]It's just a handy salt [/quote]

Although I understand my calculation formula perfectly [yeah, right] do you get more osmotic pressure with ions of a higher or lower molecular weight ie is Nacl better than MgSO4 or sugar etc.??

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 19:23:06 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]Is there anything magical about Epsom salts?[/quote]

No.

It's just a handy salt that until recently everybody would have on the shelf anyway.

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Anthony Todd — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 18:34:38 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]Hyperosmosis may have some effect as well.[/quote]

Osmotic Pressure Calculation

The osmotic pressure of a dilute solution is found to obey a relationship of the same form as the ideal gas law:

In chemistry texts, it is usually expressed in terms of the molarity of the solution and given the symbol π.

In these relationships, R = 8.3145 J/k mol is the normal gas constant and R'= 0.0821 L atm/K mol is the gas constant expressed in terms of liters and atmospheres.

For a solute mass of m = grams

of molecular weight MW = grams/mole

at absolute temperature K

dissolved to form an aqueous solution of total
volume V = cm³

the calculated osmotic pressure is

P_osmotic = kPa = atmospheres.

Note that in the calculation at left, the osmotic pressure is attributed to the solution, whereas the definition of osmotic pressure that has been used here treats positive osmotic pressure as the relative energy density of the pure solvent in relation to the solution. Since most current biology and chemistry texts attribute high osmotic pressure to the solution rather than the pure solvent in relation to the solution, I may have to give in and redefine osmotic pressure to be consistent with those common uses. It does seem backward, physically.

Thermal energy

[sigh] just apply the simple formula.

I thought all recent graduates would know this....

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

bob lehner — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:35:35 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]Is there anything magical about Epsom salts? Presumably if osmotic pressure is what we're after then normal hypertonic saline solution will help[/quote]

Or sugar or honey I imagine. I think it's all to do with maintaining warmth round the area to encourage dilation of local blood vessels/promote the inflammatory response/soften the tissue in order to encourage the body to eject the FB or bring an abscess to a head or whatever. Hyperosmosis may have some effect as well.

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Rob Davis — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:27:12 GMT

Is there anything magical about Epsom salts? Presumably if osmotic pressure is what we're after then normal hypertonic saline solution will help

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Lucy Fleming — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 15:48:58 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]but.... I don't understand how poultices are supposed to work[/quote]

I've also always assumed they are taking advantage of the body's natural ability/ tendency to break down and expel any foreign material. Like others have said, just helps it along really.

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 14:17:41 GMT

Heats the area. Keeps the tissues soft and soggy. Prevents scabbing and crusting sealing the entry wound. Accelerates festering. Osmotic pressure (if using a water-soluble salt) or capillary attraction (if using kaolin or similar) keeps the oozing going outwards.

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Rob Davis — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 12:36:49 GMT

OK, I'm probably being thick, but.... I don't understand how poultices are supposed to work. How to they "draw out" foreign bodies. I do remember using animalintex in horses a long time ago but was never particularly convinced there was anything special about them.

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 10:55:08 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"] But I agree with Clare over cat bites/scratches: lots of washing up![/quote]

Or, remembering from 40 years ago, a really tough calving. Hot poultice and massage all in one!

[/quote]

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 10:51:04 GMT

My brother and I used to get ingrowing toenails a lot when we were younger. Dad would slap on an animalintex poultice, and it fixed it every time.

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 10:38:36 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"] But I agree with Clare over cat bites/scratches: lots of washing up![/quote]

Or, remembering from 40 years ago, a really tough calving. Hot poultice and massage all in one!

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 09:25:58 GMT

Used them many many times in Mozambique and here on infected feet in small ruminants and cattle|: Innertube double folded as a "boot", some cotton wool or a piece of towel for a cow around the foot. Filled with very salty water solution (I used just common salt), warm if possible, and let it produce a sort of "trenchfoot". Leave it on a few days. I thought the high salt concentration killed off most bacteria and softened/diluted/pulled out pus and foreign bodies.It became very popular when I taught farmers to use it in this country.

There is a risk though when using it on yourself with an infection. If you happen to have orf or a fungal infection it may make it much worse! But I agree with Clare over cat bites/scratches: lots of washing up!

Mariette

RE: Grass seeds and poulticing

nikki — Thu, 21 Jul 2016 23:48:48 GMT

Use epsom salt and animalintex poultices all the time in horses. Seem to work pretty well. Don't see any reason why they wouldn't work in small animals too? Haven't tried epsom salts in smallies (I might now though) but have used animalintex.